Growing from seed /cutting - images - 17 years

http://www.bonsaiempire.com/basics/cultivation/from-seeds

enjoy.
Khaimraj

Interesting, but why is it that most "start bonsai from seed" skip on so much info?
From what little experience I've got from bonsai over the last few years since I started, I've heard of COUNTLESS beginners wanting to start from seed. That means no experience whatsoever and those tutorials just seem to teach how to obtain a nursery stock material in 3 years (in best cases) from a seed instead of a bonsai.

I mean there's so much things that you can do when starting from a seed that should give you a better stock / starting material.
If its just plant seed, then let grow and after 3 years you get a starter material, then save yourself 3 years of waiting and go to the next nursery and buy the plant you want.

I know that there is not one single way to go at it.
But I dunno, teach the most basics steps once you get the seedling to at least nudge you towars an acceptable starting material.
Stuffs like :
> remove tap root
> spread the lateral roots to prepare for future nebari
> Toughen the root ball
> Start wiring when the soft main trunk becomes lignified enough to be bend without harming the tree
> Use of sacrificial branches to thicken the base ( if possible ) etc...


I dunno, it just feels like I've watched the trailer of an action movie...
The movie is 2hrs long, the trailer is 2 mins long...
Bonsai from seeds is fun, plant the seeds, then wait for it to germinate, transfer in a bigger pot, then wait 3 years and "Presto!" you get your first bonsai material, then turn it into a bonsai.... "Taadaaa! That's how to make a bonsai from seed"

Xavier,

smile with me - from seed late last year - done how the Japanese do the J.B.pine. Cut just under the cotyledon, but I don't spread the roots as tamarinds on my side, are not used as firewood, and grow into natural straights with curves or not.
After 10 years, the trunk above the soil, bole zone ?  Will begin to rise and modify itself, as the back goes to the cracking and flaking.
Roots are only seen with extreme erosion, which is very rare for Trinidad.

The removal of the original root, gives me extremely low branching, by the way.

I am testing just how a tamarind would mature in such a shallow container.

See you in 5 to 10 years -   
Until.
Khaimraj

Xavier de Lapeyre wrote:
Bonsai from seeds is fun, plant the seeds, then wait for it to germinate, transfer in a bigger pot, then wait 3 years and "Presto!" you get your first bonsai material, then turn it into a bonsai.... "Taadaaa! That's how to make a bonsai from seed"

hehehe... Very funny. Sarcastic but funny. i am with you mate!

Why waste 1 to 3 years on seeds to become a few inches girth plant , while you can buy cheap nursery seedlings and skip the few years of waiting for the same result. You will not only save time and money (for feeds) and maybe tears if the tree died in your care with all expectations that it will turn into a bonsai someday when you have a few years more in life on earth to enjoy it.

I find this idea of seedlings like that of those selling beginners "bonsai" kit....with free plastic pot, BUT WAIT! there is more...      you'll also get free 2 seeds if you order now...hehe.

regards,
jun  

L.L.B,

Xavier is 21 years younger than me and you are 11 years younger than me, a seed in our various climates in the ground or large pot, unless you have chosen something gentically slow, would easily make a decent shape in 5 to 10 years. So perhaps, one could do the sensible, buy a few bonsai / mallsai / pre-bonsai / yammadoriand show off those.

Let the seeds grow and train. Xavier could learn so much from over 300 to 500 seedlings, giving away or selling what he does not need, encourage others and so on..............................

And where is your Tamarind from seedling ? Hiding it from the group   - friendly teasing.

When you have the time use it well.
You guys have so many years or life as I do as well.
Stay Well.
Khaimraj

Perhaps the problem is not not growing bonsai from seed - but growing the seedling into a pre-bonsai.
Maybe this will help -

https://home.comcast.net/~okamigardens/Articles/DevelopingMaples.htm

and this -

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/trunks.htm

My new / old hackberry from a root comes out of the refrigerator April 1st, and it's branch time.  

Until.
Khaimraj

Oh yes, I have some from seedlings. and they are time consuming. They will take forever to gain substantial trunk tapering and during those process you should imagine what it will look like in a bonsai garden it may reach 4 meters tall trees with 4 inches trunk girth...and you have dozens of those? It will cover and shade your entire area, weakening the rest of your almost finish trees and you have to repeat the process of cutting and regrowing the trunk for years to achieve trunk minimal tapering. maybe if we are talking here of a hectares upon hectares of bonsai material plantation it will work like the ones in China and taiwan. but, for small time bonsai growers like us, why go to this process when you can skip it by buying established stocks in a garden center. For Experiment sake? come on! I'll just give you a link on google, In 5 minutes time you can learn things that would take 5 years of your time if you do it your own experiment.
Really guys, bonsai from seeds is not worth it. You will not learn a lot from it, mankind has done those tree experiments for centuries and they put it on records .
Yamadori is the best way to go for bonsai, then air layered trees, then trees from nursery stocks, then mallsai, lastly is seedlings (if you are 10 year old or younger). This is based on what I personally have on my garden. If you don't have any good yamadori, don't say you know anything about it. It is not that easy.


regards,
jun  

I have a couple dozen trees grown from seed that I eventually intend to use as pre-bonsai. However, it is mostly for the purpose of experimenting with different techniques, and for growing species that I can't collect from the wild. In my opinion, it doesn't seem reasonable to expend much effort on seedlings when nature offers plenty of good material that has already reached considerable size.

Normally takes 1 to 2 years to get 3" [ 7.5 cm ] trunks, but I have my growing troughs prepared to work like bonsai soils and I do fertilise.
1 or 2 years more will give 5" [ 10 cm ] trunks. [ at 25 to 30 " heights or widths[ 63 to 76 cm ] the weight factor is the deciding situation ] plus firing large pots needs more thought and space ]

Then 1 or 2 years to grow on 6 branches and however long to add branchlets.

But I already have enough trees to call Bonsai, plus enough mame' [ 3" ] tall plants.

Of course I am not working on one tree from seed. So if I were doing this commercially, I would have x hundred specimens.

It is always a thrill to find something by the roadside, and collect it, but they don't always survive.
Seed-Seedling-Cutting is as I look at it, just another option - no sweat.
Later.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Normally takes 1 to 2 years to get 3" [ 7.5 cm ] trunks, but I have my growing troughs prepared to work like bonsai soils and I do fertilise.
1 or 2 years more will give 5" [ 10 cm ] trunks. [ at 25 to 30 " heights or widths[ 63 to 76 cm ] the weight factor is the deciding situation ] plus firing large pots needs more thought and space ]

Then 1 or 2 years to grow on 6 branches and however long to add branchlets.

But I already have enough trees to call Bonsai, plus enough mame' [ 3" ] tall plants.

Of course I am not working on one tree from seed. So if I were doing this commercially, I would have x hundred specimens.

It is always a thrill to find something by the roadside, and collect it, but they don't always survive.
Seed-Seedling-Cutting is as I look at it, just another option - no sweat.
Later.
Khaimraj

I'm not saying that growing from seed is bad, just that it's not a prudent use of time. I'm in my early 20's and I still don't like the idea of spending 7-10 years training a tree to become pre-bonsai. You could go to a nursery, buy a tree with terrible roots, air layer it and still be 3-5 years ahead of where you would be if you started from seed. I could go to anybody in my neighborhood who has a crepe myrtle and offer to prune it for free. For that, I would walk away with more 2-3 inch cuttings than I would know what to do with. After a year in the ground, they would already have an established set of primary branches. So with a year of effort, I'd accomplish what would take somebody perhaps a decade to accomplish by growing from seed.

However, I can appreciate the joy of watching a tree develop from a see to a fully formed bonsai. I'd compare it to watching my snakes grow. I know it will take 4 or 5 years for them to reach maturity, but I will savor watching them grow from little babies to beautiful adults. That doesn't make it an efficient process though.

Peaceful,

no sweat, I originally sent this item in for folk to just read, not really to go on a grow Seedling/Cutting crusade.
Thanks for the reply.
Later.
Khaimraj

Xavier de Lapeyre wrote: then save yourself 3 years of waiting and go to the next nursery and buy the plant you want.

This is ok if the plant you want to make a bonsai from is actually available from a nursery in your area, from my experience it is often not the way, even less likely once you move away from common varieties....

Matt,

long time no see. Additionally if you want to test a new to training tree, which I have quite a few, and it makes little sense to collect large of trunk specimens.
Thanks, I didn't even think of that.

Mind if I share. I grew a seagrape in the front yard, just because I like seagrapes, it is presently some 10 ms tall maybe a bit more. So to further the experiments on seagrapes [ searching for the most branches and smallest leaves ] my friend and I airlayered some 5 to 7 cm [ I am going on the idea that in Australia, you guys use cm's and not inches, as we do ] thick branches. Two took and one was cut down to a stump as it quickly filled the pot, the other was slower and entered into one of my 1/3 55 US gallon, black barrels and being left along for as long as it takes.

Looking at 39 cm tall trees, with maybe 6 branches and as many branchlets and leaves I can inspire at hopefully around
2.5 cms.
As Jun proposed, earlier, about using airlayers.

I don't want to yammadori, because I am worried about what I would be teaching the younger to bonsai. Seagrape are our land binders on the Eastern coast, and their removal would speed up erosion.

I intend to try and shorten the seagrape to say 4ms and do it large bonsai style, though there is not enough space to view in the front yard - chuckle.
Stay well.
Laters
Khaimraj

All points said are valid points and I agree with them.
I also have several batches of plants from seeds at various stages.

I have tried batches of casuarina, avocado, mango, apples and several others from seeds.

But my initial question is :
[quote="Xavier de Lapeyre"]Interesting, but why is it that most "start bonsai from seed" skip on so much info?[quote]

The link Khaimraj posted really explains how to proceed in much more details, but its not a link that the beginner is going to find easily : https://home.comcast.net/~okamigardens/Articles/DevelopingMaples.htm
Thanks for the link by the way Khaimraj!

But here I am thinking in terms of a complete beginner starting into bonsai for the initial link posted.
If you are already familiar with bonsai and what you want to get out of the seed, or if you are just trying out techniques that's ok.
But read the article from a point of view of a complete beginner.

For me that initial article just does not do the job. Its just a "How to germinate a seed" guide to get a "nursery plant" quality material.

The only part on turning a seedling into bonsai says this :

From seedling to Bonsai
Once you succesfully propagated trees from seed, the next step is to train the young seedlings throughout the years to become well shaped Bonsai trees. This will be a test of your patience, but it is a great way to style Bonsai trees without the need to prune thick branches (which is often inherent to styling Yamadori or nursery stock).

I really like Bonsai Empire's website and Oscar is doing an awesome job in promoting bonsai.
The article has solid info on how to make the seeds germinate, but why so little on how to prepare the seedling.
That I feel is more important to teach, the "how to prepare the seedling to later become a bonsai" as this is really what is going to help the beginner create a starter material that would be worth the trouble of growing the bonsai from seed.
Its basically plant the seeds and then wait 3 years and then start training it as a bonsai.

I AM a beginner in bonsai since I started only a few years ago.
I've done that approach with my first seed attempt, a casuariana batch of seeds and now out of 12 seedlings or so, I've got only 2 casuarina that can be potentially used as bonsai for now.
The others all lack characteristics to make a nice bonsai for now and are too rigid to be able to bend safely.
Only solution is to let them grow a lot more to thicken and go for a chop method later on.
For me at this stage its a complete failure. I would have been better off from buying a nursery casuarina with an interesting trunk.

Same goes for my apple grown from seeds attempts.
Out of the 4 seeds, only one is being treated as a prebonsai, one dead and the two others don't fit in the bonsai material category yet.

It was not wasted time in the sense that I did learn a lot, but it was a real waste of time and space and actual material obtained because I did put a lot of time and effort into them.
I found interesting articles on "bonsai from seed" similar to what Khaimraj posted later on and in online magazine like bonsai focus and so on.
I have a fresh pomegranate batch from seed that I am both trying to turn into better bonsai stock material and trying my best to document.


Lets go at it this way:
All of you who answered here (me included) you've created or started to create a bonsai from seed.
Lets say you have to explain to someone new to bonsai how to make not a bonsai, but simply a prebonsai material from seed.
WHAT WOULD YOU REALLY EXPLAIN? Just how to germinate the seed?
Are you just going to tell your friend to plant the seed and let it grow without giving it a shape? Without preparing a plan to creating a better nebari ?

Like I said initially, the article is interesting and has valid info (on germination), but why so little actual info on how to turn seedling into pre-bonsai material?
The actual title gave me high hopes, but the reading disappointed me.
And as a beginner in bonsai, I felt slightly cheated here for an instant. I was like, "Ooook! There must be a next page link somewhere with actual info on turning a seed into a bonsai...searching...searching...Nopes, that was it then."

Xavier.
Simply because most of the time it doesn't work. If it does work it would take more than a decade to justify that what they did for a very long time is worth it. I saw some articles before but I have a doubt that it is the same tree as what was posted as a seedling decades ago . and beware, because there are lot of those cheated pictures of progress works floating around.
Some cases are like this: Beginners as we know are just like an adolescent person, full of energy, very passionate with the art of bonsai and seems very determined, he would even started to believe that he can turn a simple seed into a masterpiece one day, and there is nothing wrong about being optimistic. It is just it gives false hope to most people...Then He/She will start to grow the seedlings, still hopeful.
BTW, only few percentage of overly agitated beginners will continue to have the same energy and passion if they would continue. Most of the time during the stage of learning he/she will acquire medium to high grade material/yamadori.  And then presto! he/she will find out just even under a year how comparatively worthless his seedlings or by now straight trunk young trees would be.So, it is just logical for most people who will continue the hobby/art to give up the time consuming effort and endless waiting for the seedling to turn into a believable bonsai, Instead it is also very practical for him/her to focus his attention to a more worthy material in his hands.    


regards,
jun  

Thanks Jun,
Passion is still high in my case then

Well spoken L.L.B,

and very true for most, but and there is always a but, some don't lose their drive, enthusiasm as they age. In fact it actually intensifies.

Xavier might know Oscar and could just ask him questions.

The seedling path is probably the best for those of us that use drawings to guide or remember information. I just started a J.B.pine seedling along the path of a drawing I created. I have grown and killed close to 100 seedlings and now I using cuttings, eventually airlayers in j.b pines. Still learning and still growing in large quantities from seed.

Last year I did over 100 tamarind seeds, just to learn some ideas that I have left over on IBC.
Enthusiasm or no - chuckle.
Isn't learning great!!!

The seedling is as the blank canvas, and with a drawing to guide [ plus the experience of observing,cutting many of the same type seedlings ] it's like creating an imaginative painting or what I felt when I drew a house and then built it in reality.
The level of achievement ----------------- the feelings ----------- amazing ------------ confidence building.

Small wonder we encourage new to bonsai to grow over or around 300 attempts.

But is Xavier growing his casuarinas in prepared ground as in a bonsai pot, is he growing the cuttings, is he realising the growth of 5cm [ 2" ] that you endorsed to me?
Should he not one year later have several trees with trunks at 2" [ 5 cm ]?
Adding on the 6 branches should hit the 3" [ 8cm ] trunk for a good sized mature tree.
I do remember him mentioning these trees a while ago, was it a year ?

I have 3 casuarinas in 3 gallon pots, 2 are of the new variety, and 1 the old type.
2 from seed and 1 from a root sprout [ neighbour's gift ]
I am growing, taking notes and have located 2 very mature trees to study, nothing as old as the stock you guys have, it is not native and the English probably planted one in the 40's or so. The other is probably around the 80's. Our soils do not encourage self planting, by mature trees.

I cut, I observe, I write I grow. The trunk gets larger and one day I will start the training.
Laters.
Khaimraj

* You can take a whip [ seedling ] wire to contort, fertilise, cut and encourage branch choices - even better with hedging material. How much more do you need to start ?

Or if you are like me - Lingnan baby.

You can learn a great deal from Sageretia and Serissa s. as hedging goes. I have several seeds in traing with these shrubs.

Yes LLB.

Some small percentage of the people managed to keep the drive in high gear but the majority will soon lost the interest. Even some those who even took apprenticeship from abroad will lost interest for various of reasons but mostly out of frustrations. This is the reason why I personally not advocating seeds or cuttings specially for beginners. Majority of starters will easily get frustrated if they found out after a year or even less that bonsai is not an easy task, what more with seedlings as your starter materials? Teaching people to learn patience is ideal and noble, but people being people needs to see some rewards soon otherwise interest will be gone. This is also the reason why very few people venture into bonsai.
My point is why encouraged people/beginners to a very difficult path while they can choose a shorter and easier path.

BTW. Casuarina is a very fast growing tree if you really like seedlings compared to other tropicals.

Another BTW, Don't put your Phempis seedlings in the wild in your environment (like you planned to) as they are not endemic in your area and you will soon have an ecological problem courtesy of Khaimraj.  


regards,
jun  

Ha ha, L.L.B,

I somehow don't think the pemphis can handle our vegetation and bugs, but this is a private coconut estate and somewhat controlled as cleaning goes. I will however, make sure to keep a close eye. chuckle.

If I can find another one, I have the space, perhaps a colander with a casuarina, and the growing troughs or better still a 1/3 55 US gal. barrel. I think will cook the books and look for one with a good 6 branch placement, let us see if I can have a bonsai in say 3 years.
Mind you I am not doing a Chinese or East Indies wannabe, I may use grow and clip, but I love my island's tree's shapes more.

Yes, agreed, but we do also encourage those with a more intense itch to buy bonsai. There are enough folk who want to sell their efforts, to fill that market.
I seldom get involved with the new to bonsai, too often you get the - I want to be original - think out of the box - and all they turn out is wannabe what they saw on the internet or some book.

Thinking out of the box, as I understand it requires lots of experience and knowledge and the mind wanders..............
Later.
Stay Well.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:... ...I cut, I observe, I write I grow. The trunk gets larger and one day I will start the training... ...

And you draw in between, of course, my dear friend.  
I keep on walking both paths, Jun's and Khaimraj's. Jun's path is more or less straightforward rewarding, the second path gives me the satisfaction of being part of natural growth procedure but it is also frustrating.
That's enough for now... at least for me   

LLB,
What if you are gone on this earth? your Phempis will still be there in the wild. One introduced non endemic species in the wild always turned out as a National Environment problem. Some people are asking seeds from me of Phempis and it is always my first question, if it is not in your environment it should not be put there. We bonsai people should think first of the consequences of our actions. It is not only by rampant tree gathering that we can hurt local nature, there are lot of other nasty ways.
...and yes! a big Yes! you are always involved to people "new to bonsai" by interacting and writing post in forums. I was thinking of the same thing before but we can't scape it...people "new to bonsai" somehow were influenced by us. The more we talk the more we should be more responsible-IMHO... My gosh am I getting old? hehe   

regards,
jun  

Growing things from seed is fun, educational and a diversion from doing something else equally as unachievable as cultivating a bonsai in less than fifty years.  Unless you are one of these people who has access to an almost endless supply of Yamadori material and you are over twenty years old, growing from seed is like starting a retirement plan by saving those pennies you pick up of the ground.  The older you get the harder it is to bend over and pick up the penny.  Please don't mistake what I am saying, I have grown many trees from seed.  In fact I have six JWP that I grew from seed and a hand full of JBP left that I have not sold, that were from seed.  But; from seed if you are interested in Temperate trees and bonsai, from seed the rate of growth is going to be too slow to give you a tree to work on in under five years.  

I have heard the word "I am going to grow some pre-bonsai"?  Why?  What do you do with a pre-bonsai?  Sit there and look at something that is still not bonsai, and imagine what it might look like if you had enough time of life left to work on it?  Do you, at this point in time, ask yourself "Now what do I do?"  "How do I make a bonsai?"  Good grief people, though there is nothing wrong about growing from seed, to use that as your only source for bonsai material is futile.  If you start doing bonsai from seed on your twentieth birth day, you will be seventy years old before some of these trees will start looking like bonsai.  If you are growing tropicals then that might be a different story.

Jun is right growing from seed does have this added consequence to it.  You can let something lose in the environment that will displace the local species.

Alexandra, Xavier, et All,

I shall give two more hints or nudges in the direction.

When you experiment, start of simple, and forget the ego at the door.

With seedlings, start off with the simplest shape ----------- the Formal upright.

Get a graph book and draw a proportioned triangle say 2" [ 5 cm ] at the base , the length to the peak say 12" [ 30.5 cm ] and add on 6 branches, as 1, 2, 3 [ back branch for volume can be 2 or 3 [ for now ] ] and 4, 5, 6.

1st branch 3/4 of trunk at 2" [ 5 cm ] , 2nd 1/2 of trunk at 2" [ 5cm] and so on to no.6 branch.

Get something that either hedges or naturally will produce adventitious buds along the trunk. Remember you are learning so no hang-ups about it's not special, or brilliant as plants go.

Plant in a colander of about 8" [ 20 cm ] wide and then s many months later, be prepared to use a much larger, but not much deeper than the colander container.
Just grow, selecting the branches.

Alexandra, the small fruited pomegranate or maybe an olive, and the tropicals fukien tea, serissa s, or casuarina.

The idea from early on is simple, correct branch placement [ see your graph ] and calculated branch thickening [ see your graph ] stopping the top branches as you hit or just before the proportions on your graph [ remember you still have to produce branchlets.]

To do the Informal requires, a piece of clay or plastercine to make the shape in 3d.
Then two graphs, front and side.
Be prepared to wire for bends.
Follow as for the formal.

You should have between 10 to 20 efforts on the same style. Just give away later on what you don't want.

If you guys can't do the above, I suggest you spend the rest of your lives knitting, or buying yamamadori and doing green hats   
Later.
Khaimraj

* as though the above could not have been easily thought out -   
Enjoy as they say - the Journey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTerPiy85A8

Khaimraj,
Thanks for the advice
You approach looks even more of a hassle that what I am doing currently if I may say so lol
I'll give it a try on one or two plants though.
Personally I find the formal upright to be more challenging to get right.
An informal or slanted or multi-trunk style is more forgiving for a beginner if the trunk gets a bend during the training process.

What I had in mind for someone starting from seed was more something like this (It is not complete, the article will have to be updated as the plants grow and evolve over the next years ) : http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_Growing%20Bonsai%20From%20Seed%20page1.html

I don't mean to be resisting the flow and not needing to have the ego thing thrown at me again as a reason to not respond to what is said, I see no ego in equating logic with correct.  At the end of all of these method of growing from seed, good as they are, they lack the one important piece of information:  Sit back and watch for the next five, ten, fifteen or twenty years.  There is no real time machine.  Trees grow according to their own programing and can only be manipulated to respond differently some of the time.