"simply sharing"

IMHO Trying a new way to just share information,
take it or leave it, no problem!, no bickering wanted!,
like on other tread!, already had enough...
 
In a club meeting resiliently , I had the opportunity                                                                                                                                   to learn from a Korean Suiseki Master (Gate keeper)
Who said That we Americans might never really learn Suiseki,
because it is a spiritual way of stone appreciation?
three others sitting near me,who I also consider "gate keepers" disagreed!
But I thought to myself "well Ya!" for me it is a spiritual.
In the over whelming feelings that the stones portray or  "Speak to Me"

Let me use this stones "Lashes" as an example.
It is first and for most completely 100% natural as picked up from river.
Nothing has been done to this cobble, except brought home with me.
I see it as created by God's, His handy work or heavenly art if you will.
I see the pattern as whip marks on the back of Christ before the Crucifixion.
That is the image that this stone conveys, story from my past spiritual memories.
However having said this Club President said it doesn't have to be religious experience to enjoy the rocks
stonener
*feeling stones*



do they speak to you? do you feel what they say? no words emotions!

Hi stonener

I also think many people in the west does not understand suiseki...suiseki is japanese, and to really understand, you have to know a little about the japanese way of thinking...japanese suisekilovers see sertain things in stones ...they never "I see the pattern as whip marks on the back of Christ before the Crucifixion."..this is completely western, and has nothing to do with suiseki.

You can have all the owerwelming feelings you have about your stones, but it is not suiseki..it is probably a good idea to use a another word ....well I dont know...maybe some else have a better idea.

Kind regards Yvonne

Ms Yvonne maybe as you said? BUT WHY?
Now tell us how to think suiseki! You point out the problem! now point out the answer!
Tell us what is suiseki in your opinion! don't just argue! Help others to learn!...   
Stop complaining and bickering  Share with us what you say you know! Japanese suiseki way?
We all want to learn! Teach, oh and don't worry about the language! we understand you well.
*stonener*
"doesn't make sense"

Hi Stonener

Stop complaining and bickering ....I dont know what you are talking about. I dont know why you think about me this way...when do I complain???...and bickering why do you say that about me?...you have to stop saying things like that...and try to see me as I am..I am just saying what I feel, know and do.
I must think about how to explain suiseki...it may be more than I can do...and right now am I not in the mood.

Kind regards Yvonne

Ms Yvonne! you just did it again! read back your post... 
no need for all the smoke and mirrors, just defensive drama!
"SIMPLY SHARING" we will wait for your mood to change!... 
Very Interested in "what you feel, know and do!"
and why?, share your knowledge! stop our confusion!,.. 
Talk as if you want to Teach!, to open minds and eyes.
help us to learn and understand what you say you know!... 
stonene
*eyes on you*

a Korean Suiseki Master (Gate keeper)
Who said That we Americans might never really learn Suiseki,
because it is a spiritual way of stone appreciation?

kinda like saying men are better drivers then women.

Brash blanket statements do a great diservice to the individual who has chosen to dedicate time,expense and effort into something they wish to be involved in. rather than act as if something were exclusive to eastern culture, I think it would do justice to try and help all those worldwide to be able to contribute inside and outside the box.

IMHO, I may disagree with another's opinion but I'd like to hear it to see if there is any validity to it.

If opinions were like a flower garden and there was only one flower thought to be correct, no matter how extensive, it wouldn't take much time to take it all in. Give me the variety and figure out a way to tie them all in...

Hello Stonener ,
         Yvonne   ,
         Dick Benbow ,
             Mr. Chris and My Friends - Members IBC Forum .
_ " ...figure out away to tie them all in ... " : I am agree with You ( Dick Benbow ) .
However ... We often feel irritated by our feel , our personal emotion ( individual ) ... for every stone ( ? )
               The Japanese playing with Suiseki Art with our other  ( ? ) ... They are integrated into the " natural world " of natural stone as much than we , and if we go to them more , then we will understand the Art Suiseki of them more ... ( ? )
  Thank you very much your share of Yvonne , Dick Benbow , Stonener - My Friend , Mr. Chris and all ...
  Sincerely ,
  Hưng - Trần .

Hi Stonener

I tried to responce and say my honest opinion regarding suiseki in my first reply, and what a little of Japan is about......"japanese suisekilovers see sertain things in stones ...they never "I see the pattern as whip marks on the back of Christ before the Crucifixion."..this is completely western, and has nothing to do with suiseki."...

in my first reply did I say this...and you became upset insteadt of thinking deeper about it...it was actully teaching a little suiseki...every time I say something you dont understand, you dont think about giving it a second thought, but pull the insultcard right away, and throw words here and there....I have never had the intension of insulting you.

Let us say I give up on you, and if it was possible, would I delete you as a friend, and block you from seeing what I say to other people.

I will not speak to you Again, and I expect you dont talk about me in this topic, or other topics in the future.

Ms Yvonne your doing it again... 
I am not insulted as only you say! it's not personal?
How can we ever learn anything from you?
If when your questioned you turn and run away!... 
"doesn't make sense" just asking you to TALK to us!
about "what you feel, know and do" openly!
Suiseki is an art! and there are many artist participating
I am Western not Japanese and not Buddhist but still love suiseki art.
Even Old Masters have come up with new ways, as we have seen here.
Don't block learning! add to it and stop bickering... 
stonener
*give up really?*

I don't know what spirituality has to do with enjoying viewing stones.  

A suiseki is a stone that gives the impression of a mountain, waterfall, rock formation, etc. I don't need to get some hokey mystical vibe to appreciate suiseki.

Well said kennedymarx

Ms Yvonne I like the way you said it better! read back!

"this is completely western and has nothing to do with suiseki"

"but it is not suiseki.. it is probably a good idea to use a another word"....

viewing stones, is that the a another word you like so much?

I like, don't need to get some hokey mystical vibe to appreciate suiseki

IMHO suggest reading Bonsai Clubs International No 4 2009
article by Willi Benz on suiseki starting on page 14
stonener
*knowledge no BS*

It's interesting to see the comments from a korean master who fears westerners will not "get" the spiritual aspect of stones, and to hear that (from a westerner) we don't need any hokey mystical vibe to recognize structure.

All I can draw from that is that each according to their gifts,needs to appreciate that we are all not alike and that it truely does take a villiage.Especially if we are to advance the hobby.

On many of the hobby chatlines, this conversation would have been immediately shut down by the mods and IMHO done a diservice
to the topic. I know a lot who have viewed this conversation have avoided posting, But I would like to get some support, that it's Ok to see a topic from your point of view while recognizing it might not be the same for another. But each differing viewpoint has value and confrontations if kept civil have value in allowing others to sort thru where they stand.This thought process has value to the individual.
For what ever it's worth, I happen to fall into the camp that believes there is spiritual value in stones and trees. And yes, I'm a westerner.

Hi Dick... I agree with you that threads best run their course with self-moderation by members. Your voice as well as the voice of Hung-Tran resonate for me, and I am sure for others, as embodying the function of the Stone Forum to share, appreciate and learn. Even difficult threads present an opportunity to grow.

Reaching toward its potential, suiseki & bonsai practice in Japan embraces intimate display presented to a cultivated guest by a skilled host. It is somewhat akin to receiving tea in ceremony as opposed to taking a tea break. Relatively few opportunities for appreciation reach this intimacy, but perceiving a suiseki or bonsai with that potential is not "some hokey mystical vibe." I believe that Yvonne & Stonener share authenic openness-to- experience, but a viewing stone collector is not required to share them. While acknowledging skill, each of us will find some ideas quite odd.

Kennedymarx might be the most skilled collector among us. Do you see spiritless display as an option, KM? Can you share an example?

Thanks, again, Dick (& Hung) for encouraging free-range of expression.

Dear Lord people,  a fight!  I almost I missed it!  hihihihihihihiihi

Drama drama drama.       I'm coming to the party!

Stonener what happened, I thought this was your tiger stone?  

 To turn the stone into a whipping stone makes it look 'sore' to me and then I cringe when I look at it....feel the pain.  

To touch a subject like Christianity in such a open forum like this, is like firing into crowd and then somebody is gonna get wet..uhhhhh I mean hurt.  

But it is suppose to, get us involved emotionally, me thinks, so whatever one feel when you look at a stone, doesn't matter, its the intensity of the emotion that is important.  The more intense the emotion the more powerful the stone.  This is basic universal understanding.  Well,  I'm not talking about the  mass produced family that live in a small bubble world, and when you talk to them about growing square watermelons,  they go glazed eyed, and think you probably think there are aliens out there,  and you think, you don't?

"...an intense experience with suiseki conveys a feeling of the cosmic order to which man belongs."

Anybody can see beauty, all in our own way of course, and people who can see the beauty in a stunning stone can also feel its inner spirit.   To say that Americans cannot is bizarre and stupid.

If Suiseki was only meant to be understood and appreciated by the Japanese, it would be a very small insignificant art form, like barbwire collecting in Texas?  Or Kilts in Scotland.  

" In each place where it takes root, it is shaped by different social and cultural factors and by the geographical features of the environment that affect any description of aisek, and its meaning, and its beauty."  M. Paiman  

So the art forms becomes global and bigger..  like my elephant skin stones from the desert...you don't get that my china, I'm mean IN China.

He also said:  "a broader understanding of suiseki and a commitment to the international movement have produced a more cohesive flow of information.  In this way, what was once a traditional art form is developing on the international level as a contemporary movement."

So without the Amricans and Africans and Aussies ect ect, this cannot happen.

Creation itself is the force that shape beautiful stones.  Creation doesn't belong to Japan only.

So by the way didn't Suiseki start in China?  Aisek it was called?

Lets call it the collecting of Beloved Stones (Aisek)  that will piss somebody off...again...and again.   It doesn't matter if the Japanese doesn't want us to call it suiseki, it's not gonna stop us form doing it, collecting it, and calling it  just that. Suiseki, our beloved stones....

And dear Yvonne if Stonener again tell you to stop bickering,     I'm gonna whip him!  And then he have to get another bloody Whipping stone!

Love and light
ps : Sorry Stonener, I coudn't resist.

I have always used the old Chinese philosophy about stones.

One, they help you to contemplate and secondly, it is a means of touching the past. Often the stone gains it's value from simply the previous owner - memories.

The original stone shown here, looks as though it should be touched, and as such I would never put it on a stand. I would make a box out of some special wood - say - seagrape - and line the inside with velvet.
Once in while as the sun went down, I would take it out and just touch it. As though one were touching a sunset.
Is that what would be termed - a spiritual experience ?

I have several pieces of sulphur, that look like yellow mountains where the immortals would dwell. In allowing the mind to wander, images for paintings can be born.

I am not much into decoration, which is why I no longer show what I find on this forum, as I believe this how - stone appreciation, lost it's original purpose and just died.
It has all become ---- a collector's purpose and sadly for sale.
Later.
Khaimraj

Hi Khaimraj

The things you say is beatiful and fairly true...and I believe this is how we, who love to find the stones, and apreciate them in our house feel...also how stoneners stone should be apreciated, it makes sense to me...it has nothing to do with suiseki or wievingstones in a daiza....but simply enjoing the stone as the person he is, and the feelings he have...this I have respected all the time..have never had a another opinion.

The last thing you say, makes no sense to me...it is not all about selling...but what I experience is that people expose themself with showing stones they see things in, and have memories with...and this is letting dawn guards...I feel this a lot, but keep my arms dawn....other people are plain hurt...you can say it is all about selling..this way you protect yourself.

My love for stones is not dead, and will never be...I have too many memories with them...and I would never say a thing like this to persons who love the stones...times are changing, and not only a scollar sitting here and there have a stone...we are too many who love them, to just let them stay in the nature,

Kind regards Yvonne....Thanks Andre for the support

Yvonne,

I always think about you and Lyn Boyd, when I walk the beach, and a stone finds me. Lyn felt so sorry for me, and our clay based soils [ no stones ] she shipped me 10 lbs of stones. A wonderful person, great painter,blessings to her always.
Later.
Khaimraj

Dear khaimraj

Lyn has send you a stone...I have not...I read between the lines.

Sorry I have dissappointed you

Kind regards Yvonne

Yvonne,

Oh no no no,I was sharing a memory. Nothing more.

Apologies, if you felt slighted.

You gave me a gift that I could never repay you. My ficus trees are growing and growing.   
I am so happy.    

That is more than enough.
Stay Well.
Khaimraj

Yvonne,

Lyn had a stroke some years ago, and when last I asked about her, she was not doing well.
I don't even know if she is still alive. Lost her telephone number.
The stone stuff, always brings back memories of her and the IBC as an e-mail list.

I bonded very tightly with some of the older heads on the IBC e-mail list, especially the painters [ Carl Rosner in his late 80's.] and now they are all so much older. It's an uncomfortable reality.
Hope this explains.
Sadly.
Khaimraj

My dear Khaimraj

Am I relieved and happy for your reply...Words cant say enough...many thanks for the quik response.

I understand the rest of the mail.

Very kind regards Yvonne

Hey Dre! Thank You Very Much! exactly what I wanted to do!...   
Get viewers feeling what I was thinking! by using their imagination.
Not just following some other cultures rigid way of looking at stones!
A more open minded and maybe an American way of thinking... 
stonener
*feelings*

 

the shoulders than bore the sins of the world! pass, present & future

Thank You! also to those who communicated by P M & email
for taking the time & effort! in suggesting other themes!
Heart shape
Angel Wings
Dry Water Falls
Fall Maple Mountain
Kiwi Bird
bloody cow pie