Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

I told you; I care. I prefer to think of myself as an artist rather than a butcher. I wish you the best of luck with your trees if you choose to follow Walter Pall's styling techniques and advice.

mambo wrote:I told you; I care. I prefer to think of myself as an artist rather than a butcher. I wish you the best of luck with your trees if you choose to follow Walter Pall's styling techniques and advice.

I was wrestling with whether or not I should reply to this, because my instinct was to leave a snide remark. However, I'm not going to do that, instead I have two point I would like to make. The techniques an artist chooses to employ have no bearing on the eventual outcome of their creation. Believing one method to me more artistic than another is not only pretentious, but it also shows a fundamental lack of understanding in terms of what constitutes art. Furthermore, I find it extremely ironic that you bring up the issue of respect, and then insult not only myself, but also Walter Pall, a highly respected member of the Bonsai community.

The techniques an artist chooses to employ have no bearing on the eventual outcome of their creation.

Wow! I'd say it has everything to do with the outcome. There just may be more than one equally valid technique one can use to reach the outcome.

HOWEVER, if you two need to keep on sniping at one another, please do it via Private Messaging. None of us need to be subjected to it and we're not learning anything useful about bonsai (human nature, maybe).

PeacefulAres wrote:

mambo wrote:I told you; I care. I prefer to think of myself as an artist rather than a butcher. I wish you the best of luck with your trees if you choose to follow Walter Pall's styling techniques and advice.

I was wrestling with whether or not I should reply to this, because my instinct was to leave a snide remark. However, I'm not going to do that, instead I have two point I would like to make. The techniques an artist chooses to employ have no bearing on the eventual outcome of their creation. Believing one method to me more artistic than another is not only pretentious, but it also shows a fundamental lack of understanding in terms of what constitutes art. Furthermore, I find it extremely ironic that you bring up the issue of respect, and then insult not only myself, but also Walter Pall, a highly respected member of the Bonsai community.

The butcher vs artist comment was a personal one to me, hence the use of 'myself'. Had I meant it as an insult to you I would have simply written "If you prefer to be a butcher etc". It would appear that our idea of creating the art of bonsai also differs greatly. I am one of many who are not enamoured with Walter Pall's art/style of creating bonsai. This does not mean that he is good or bad, just that it is not to my taste. I dislike Miro but love Monet. Anybody who creates bonsai is an artist, and like anybody who picks up a brush or a piece clay, some are simply more gifted or more understood than others.

I think we both know where we stand now and suggest we move on.

JimLewis wrote:

The techniques an artist chooses to employ have no bearing on the eventual outcome of their creation.

Wow! I'd say it has everything to do with the outcome. There just may be more than one equally valid technique one can use to reach the outcome.

HOWEVER, if you two need to keep on sniping at one another, please do it via Private Messaging. None of us need to be subjected to it and we're not learning anything useful about bonsai (human nature, maybe).

Maybe I wasn't clear with that comment. I meant that that the artists techniques do not influence the validity of their art. Somebody who creates fine sculptures isn't making better art than somebody who smashes rocks with a hammer.

And I'm done arguing about this subject. I just thought it was kind of rude for someone to come into my thread and take swipes at myself, and Walter Pall.

PeacefulAres,

Celtis don't really like to be hedge clipped, try the technique where you select negative spaces and build on v's.

The tree you have shown, has the ability to heal the top nicely and then be cut back or trunk thicken.

I will try to send an image later so you can see what I mean by V's.

By the way, [ said with no emotion ] hedge clipping is what was being discussed in the Phemphis topic and why they could die. The clipping like topiary, blocks light to leaves and the tree / shrub tends to kill off the areas lacking light.
Later.
Khaimraj

Celtis from Louisiana.
About 30 or so years old.
12 inches [ 30.5 cm ] tall.
Lots of buds still forming.
Later.
Khaimraj

Hi Khaimraj,

Here's a species that doesn't mind some hedge clipping. What I want to know is who let Walter loose with the shears again!

Mambo,

could you have a heart and ease up on Mr.Pall, he just had major surgery and I think he should be allowed to heal without any philosophies that might not agree with his. Please.

On the hedge bit, I didn't realise that folk were using that as a technique until I saw a youtube video of someone trimming a shrub for bonsai.
Now I am not sure how to illustrate the problems of - light depravation - over time and the use of the V's or negative spaces.
I thought Peter Adams handled that a long time ago. [ memory here, I stand to be corrected.] maybe folk don't read books anymore ?

I have tried to tackle it with the Defoliation, Andre's Brush Cherry and Ficus images in the Bonsai Discussion forum.
Let's keep this scientific and not emotional.
Thanks in advance.
Khaimraj

* P.s the mantra-- moderator is god ----do as the moderator says, or you could end up running silent and read only as this group goes.
I had this done to me on an Art Forum, because of an image I painted and the moderator got upset with a counter philosophy in oil painting. I woke up and on that forum had eyes only.

Khaimraj, the way I understood the hedge trimming method wasn't that ti was to be used as the sole method of shaping the tree. It's simply a way of controlling growth, while strengthening the tree by periodically cutting back the foliage to let light in. You still do the traditional branch removal as well.

Khaimraj,

Walter may not like people to disagree with his opinions on bonsai, but he does have a sense of humour!

I was not aware that he was ill.

Peaceful Ares,

I am afraid I have never hedge clipped any tree / shrub in all my years of doing bonsai. I do yearly have to hedge clip a bamboo hedge, you always end up with about 12 inches [ 30.5 cm ] of growth on the outside and everything else dead on the inside. Light cannot get in.

This is one of those techniques that I can show you in reality in a second, but not so easy to show with photographs, as it is a 3d technique [ sculptural ].

So I gather no one looked at my Hackberry, guess it is in the Natural style again --- ha ha ha.
Not shown for compliments just trying to help.
I always wonder why in the US so few ever show Celtis, and it is premium grade bonsai ????????????????

Mambo, the information on Mr.Pall was in the Lounge.
I know nothing about the man other than what he has shown, I come from the world of Fine Art, and I don't really have a sense of Bonsai folk, primarily because I treat Bonsai as a hobby.
I do read a few blogs, but with time a good deal of that written stuff is monotonous.
Later.
Khaimraj

* I only just beginning to understand that repotting for folk more North is what I know to be bare rooting. I will check with China and Japan, just how well trees over say 10 years handle being bare rooted.

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Peaceful Ares,

So I gather no one looked at my Hackberry, guess it is in the Natural style again --- ha ha ha.
Not shown for compliments just trying to help.
I always wonder why in the US so few ever show Celtis, and it is premium grade bonsai ????????????????

I like your celtis. I am working on one, but I need a couple more years to show it (it may never actually be "show-ready")
Oliver

Oliver,

I enjoy looking at all efforts. [ Take the hint - ]

Just wondering do you know how durable the heartwood is ?
Doesn't seem to last down here.
Thanks.
Khaimraj

I've been following this thread now for while and without wanting to get away from the original point (to rub off the excess buds or to let them grow) I thought I'd post a link. It's to what I assume was the original Walter Pall "hedge trimming" article which was only briefley mentioned but which now appears to be one of the main topics of conversation.

You have to scroll down the page. It's dated Febuary 11th

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=walter%20pall%20bonsai&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&ved=0CE8QFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwalter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com%2F&ei=ZiRnUeaaBuO-0QXfv4GQBQ&usg=AFQjCNFojtBD5CUI_uqprlrW4D2qQ1o4RA&bvm=bv.45107431,d.d2k

Needless to say, Walter Pall was not advocating that we all style our bonsai like topiary. Rather he appears to simply be arguing that the healthiest way to promote back budding, increase ramification and even eliminate long internodes and large leaf size is to let shoots grow freely, harden off and then to cut back. Rather than, as is often advised, to try and prevent free growth by furious bud pinching!

Applying that logic to the original question that started this thread, it would seem that letting the buds produce shoots and grow freely for the early part of the season before later removing them would be the best option (as far as the health of the tree is concerned anyway). However, if there is anyone who having actually read the article still disagrees with the horticulural principals expressed I would love to hear their reasons why.

I have several broadleaf deciduous trees in a fairly early stage of development and they are just starting to leaf out so I too will shortly be having to decide whether to bud pinch or to let the shoots grow freely!

All opinions greatfully received.

Regards

Richard

Walter's article is on our "Top Threads" page, also.

https://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t12681-refurbishing-a-japanese-maple-the-hedge-cutting-method

Thanks Jim

I knew I'd seen it here somewhere before!

Richard S wrote:I've been following this thread now for while and without wanting to get away from the original point (to rub off the excess buds or to let them grow)
Needless to say, Walter Pall was not advocating that we all style our bonsai like topiary. Rather he appears to simply be arguing that the healthiest way to promote back budding, increase ramification and even eliminate long internodes and large leaf size is to let shoots grow freely, harden off and then to cut back. Rather than, as is often advised, to try and prevent free growth by furious bud pinching!

Hi Richard.

Yes it is a way to promote back budding but it does this in a random manner depending on where the shears happen to cut. Yesterday I pruned a celtis sinensis that I had pruned back hard in winter then allowed to bud, shoot and harden off. Instead of a 5 minute job with pruning shears, I took an hour. However, the end result will be that within reason I know exactly where the new buds will be and what direction they will take and was eliminated the shoots that were growing too strongly. The end result will be more refined and has other advantages. To me pruning with shears is just another way of cutting corners to save time in the same way as the application of some 'naturalistic' techniques.

Mambo, I think you are beating a dead horse (colloquialism, if that's an unfamiliar phrase to you; it means wearing a subject out.)

Walter's "hedge clipping" was, perhaps a poor choice of words -- maybe used as an an attention getter. He's really, really not treating his trees badly.

So let's just drop this little side trip, shall we? ALL of us? It is quite pointless, and I'm afraid egos are going to start raising their ugly heads again.

as mambo said, this cutting technique may look at first just a rough method with the main interest to save time, as oppose to detail pruning and planning of where buds will be for next season, but i think it's wrong in a way. I think this technique also plays a role in the building of the naturalistic look itself : you just trim to the global shape, then the tree grows freely "choosing" itself where and how it grows, producing shapes that are obviously less contrived than those resulting from planified/detailed pruning. The important moment is i feel actually when you do the winter structure pruning, deciding what you keep from what the tree proposed itself (given the pruining technique, it produced probably much more than is useful for the tree designing) during the year. In a way it is a more interactive method with the tree, as you abandon some of the control over its growth to itself and then select what you keep, compared to technique in which you control every little twigs. It does not seem to me to be a lazy way, but a different approach of the tree forming, and that probably partly explain the naturalness of the shapes obtained.

I still believe natural-looking and ultimately better results can be obtained with a more meticulous approach.

This is a zelkova of mine I posted a while back that is far from finished yet. Each approach will have it's own adherents. Is one better than the other? Who knows. It's a matter of personal choice. I prefer to see trees that you appreciate that the artist has paid meticulous attention to even minor details. My argument is not against the 'naturalistic' style at all, but rather the description being used as an excuse for poor detail finishing.

Mambo,

You could also thoroughly read the article for once. You write in a derogative way here and outright insult me on Spanish forums. All you utter is prejudices. Inform yourself, otherwise you appear as an ignorant.

Dear Walter,

Nice to see you up and about, alive and kicking! The internet bonsai world is less interesting without you around and I mean that sincerely.

I have written nothing on any Spanish forum that I have not written here or elsewhere. Differing in my opinions with you about the approach to styling bonsai is not being insulting unless of course you regard not agreeing with you as an insult...

That's IT!

I have asked -- nicely, I thought -- that you simply drop this subject, but you keep on posting in some kind of effort to force people to think like you do. This topic is LOCKED.