Re: When to chop Maple?

drgonzo Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:50 am

You know I remember reading somewhere that the way the chinese grow them out for export is in a field until they are tall like this one is then cut the trunk to whatever height, cut off all the branches, and then cut all the roots off leaving only 2-3 inch stubs, then stick them in pots and they bounce right back, I certainly went heavy on mine last week root wise and she's just banging out leaves.

The willow leaf ficus's of the Maple world maybe, is what I thought.
-jay

Ryan Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:51 am

bucknbonsai wrote:ryan i grew up doing a lot field growing (mostly all tridents) not far from you and with tridents you can get away with anything (as long as its the right time of year and you keep the root hairs moist while working on it) I do not know what kind of soil that nursery pot has but with mine from the field I keep a 100gallon cattle trough filled with water in the bonsai growing area and with just a few vigorous dips up and down like churning butter motion, pretty much all the dirt will fall off enough to do what you need to do. I tend to reduce top and bottom at the same time and do it in the spring and i have never killed a trident. you will still have plenty of buds popping even with huge root reductions, I promise. and if you want your tree to be no taller than 12 inches, depending on the style I would definitely do your first chop maybe only 4 inches high, and i would do it now as well. If your going to thread graft new nebari on the back I would pot up seedlings in real small pots now and then in mid summer you can disturb very little soil of the main tree and drop the undisturbed little root balls in place. Or you could just do the graft now while you are bare rooting it (easier to drill at exact right place then)

What if instead of 75% I instead did, say, 40-50%, bare rooted it, and planted it over a tile. That way it would still have a good amount of roots. Should I chop first or do root work first? Or does it even matter so long as its done in the same day (I assume it doesn't)?

bucknbonsai Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:52 am

ryan just go to lowes and get some concrete mixing tubs there are 2 sizes and they are about 12 dollars and 6 dollars. you will probably need the 6 dollar size for this tree. But even for trees smaller than yours I will often get the 12 dollar size which is about 3 feet long and place a shallow rooted tree that is not very big right on the bottom of the pot and since you dont want to much sopping wet soil just only put about an 1.5 to 2 inches of soil in it and the bottom of the pot will act as the tile. Next year(or i have even done mid summer) just lift up the root ball poor in 2 more inches of soil in the bottom and put the root ball right back down again (at this point you would put a tile under it). you can do this for about 3 seasons as the tubs are about 6 inches deep. this would produce a lot of growth, I dont know if your shooting for a skinny 12" tall tree or a sumo style 12" tall tree.

bucknbonsai Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:56 am

do it same day. Tom scott who is now in his 80s in chatanooga TN has taught me a lot about field growing tridents, hes been doing it since the early 70s, he describes once seeing a refrigerated room stacked to the ceiling of thousands of maples bareroot for up to weeks at a time waiting for shipping. its incredible what they can survive.

Ryan Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:59 am

bucknbonsai wrote:ryan just go to lowes and get some concrete mixing tubs there are 2 sizes and they are about 12 dollars and 6 dollars. you will probably need the 6 dollar size for this tree. But even for trees smaller than yours I will often get the 12 dollar size which is about 3 feet long and place a shallow rooted tree that is not very big right on the bottom of the pot and since you dont want to much sopping wet soil just only put about an 1.5 to 2 inches of soil in it and the bottom of the pot will act as the tile. Next year(or i have even done mid summer) just lift up the root ball poor in 2 more inches of soil in the bottom and put the root ball right back down again (at this point you would put a tile under it). you can do this for about 3 seasons as the tubs are about 6 inches deep. this would produce a lot of growth, I dont know if your shooting for a skinny 12" tall tree or a sumo style 12" tall tree.

I'll check tomorrow for those tubs. Do you think a reduction of the rootball by 50% and bare rooting would allow the roots to sit on the bottom of the tub? Should I cover these exposed roots or leave them exposed?

I think a sumo style one would be great, especially if I can get those roots to all melt together later down the road...

bucknbonsai Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:00 am

Oh, he has also had them survive 5 hour drives bareroot with zero protection in the back of a pickup truck on the way home from a bonsai show with no adverse affect. This is what he says at least. He does point out that the only one he has known to be killed of any of these is when one of our club members tried taking one directly from his field and potting it up in a very coarse rocky gravel type mix that is used for ponderosas.

Marty Weiser Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:08 am

For shallow boxes you can buy Anderson flats from various sources or make your own. You can make your own as complicated as you want, but a basic grow box can be made from 2x4 or 2x6 stock cut to the inside box dimension plus 1.5". Cover the bottom with 1/4" hardware cloth or similar (available at many places in the USA and presume elsewhere) and add a couple of feet made from 1x2 stock (I think metric wood dimensions would be 4x10, 4x14, and 2x4 cm, but I am not sure). I prefer to make it all from Redwood or pressure treated lumber and miter the corners with some taper from top to bottom, but those are details. The mesh bottom allows for excellent drainage so you can fertilize heavily and prevents the roots from circling the pot bottom.

bucknbonsai Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:11 am

cover the roots the same amount that they look like now in your nursery can. Sometimes (if the roots are stiff and wont allow for potting it flat) for the first few months I will keep a few heavy rocks on the rootball to keep it pressed down to the bottom of the pot and this helps protect from heavy watering disturbing new roots. In stead of rocks you can use a tile or thick plastic plate with drill holes around the perimeter, you can tie the roots in the position you want with twine and by the time the roots set the twine will rot away before having time to scar the roots. 50 percent reduction is fine. Last year I had pretty much the same tree as you have, I cut it from 7 feet tall down to 1foot tall and I cut ALL of the rootball off except for the amount of surface roots as the tree in your picture. I even did it after it had leafed out completely (i got away with it because i removed 90 percent of its leaves by chopping it down). It rebounded so quick it sent out multiple 3-4 foot long shoots by the end of that very same growing season. Its doing great this year, and by getting rid off all those roots that were growing strait down, the surface nebari (which is why i bought the tree) really beefed up already.

Ryan Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:13 am

Thank you Marty. After looking online of the pictures of the mixing tubs, I think I'll probably go that route. They don't appear to have holes in the bottom, however, so I'll have to drill a good amount...

Ryan Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:15 am

bucknbonsai wrote:cover the roots the same amount that they look like now in your nursery can. Sometimes (if the roots are stiff and wont allow for potting it flat) for the first few months I will keep a few heavy rocks on the rootball to keep it pressed down to the bottom of the pot and this helps protect from heavy watering disturbing new roots. In stead of rocks you can use a tile or thick plastic plate with drill holes around the perimeter, you can tie the roots in the position you want with twine and by the time the roots set the twine will rot away before having time to scar the roots. 50 percent reduction is fine. Last year I had pretty much the same tree as you have, I cut it from 7 feet tall down to 1foot tall and I cut ALL of the rootball off except for the amount of surface roots as the tree in your picture. I even did it after it had leafed out completely (i got away with it because i removed 90 percent of its leaves by chopping it down). It rebounded so quick it sent out multiple 3-4 foot long shoots by the end of that very same growing season. Its doing great this year, and by getting rid off all those roots that were growing strait down, the surface nebari (which is why i bought the tree) really beefed up already.

Thank you! Tomorrow I'll buy the tub, chop the tree down to a few inches tall, bare root it, and plant the tree in the tub. Should it go in the shade or the sun? I assume I'll also have to protect the stump from cold temperatures as well.

bucknbonsai Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:24 am

sun not shade. your question brings up something I often get frustrated with. They say for trees in general to protect them from temps in the 40s once roots have been disturbed yet it seems to me if you waited till 40 degree nights are gone, then the trees are in full leaf. Also moving them into and out of the garage etc.. disturbs the roots. hopefully someone has opinions on this. Of course if you had a greenhouse you could just pot them up and stick them in there and not worry about it. One advantage of the wooden boxes over plastic if you have the money or time is that when picking them up to move them they do not torque/bend and hence would be less likely to damage any fine root hairs. Despite this I use plastic and nothing has died from this torquing. I sometimes use 2 tubs nested inside one another for extra rigidness.

lordy Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:13 pm

bucknbonsai wrote:sun not shade. your question brings up something I often get frustrated with. They say for trees in general to protect them from temps in the 40s once roots have been disturbed yet it seems to me if you waited till 40 degree nights are gone, then the trees are in full leaf. Also moving them into and out of the garage etc.. disturbs the roots. hopefully someone has opinions on this. Of course if you had a greenhouse you could just pot them up and stick them in there and not worry about it. One advantage of the wooden boxes over plastic if you have the money or time is that when picking them up to move them they do not torque/bend and hence would be less likely to damage any fine root hairs. Despite this I use plastic and nothing has died from this torquing. I sometimes use 2 tubs nested inside one another for extra rigidness.

At this point in our collective east-ish locale, with the temps for the next 2 weeks predicted to be at or above 70 I would not bother with taking trees back in at night. Mine are out at least 3 weeks earlier this year than last only because of the warmer temps. **caveat** my trees are kept outdoors all year with only a wind break and mulch as winter protection.
I would also be more safe than sorry and put anything I've worked the roots on in the shade for a couple of weeks. Virginia has a bit longer season than me, and this is a marathon not a sprint, right? What's the rush? Is it worth possibly harming the tree? Probably wouldnt, but patience might pay off, and certainly wouldnt hurt.
Boon did a pretty hard prune on one of my Tridents 3 years ago I think, while in leaf, and there was no bleeding at all. I put cut paste on it, and after one year there was probably 1/4" of callous all the way around the two major limbs he removed (limbs may have been 1" diameter).

drgonzo Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:23 pm

lordy wrote:At this point in our collective east-ish locale, with the temps for the next 2 weeks predicted to be at or above 70 I would not bother with taking trees back in at night.

Its funny you should say that as I got up in the middle of the night and I happened to glance at my indoor/outdoor and noticed it was JUST above freezing outside when at midnight, when I went to bed last night, it was still in the 50's ...Out I dashed (4am) to grab my Trident, who's just leafing out, and bring her in...

My wife has learned to just accept this sort of madness...bless Very Happy

-Jay

bucknbonsai Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:27 pm

the reason I say sun is because the soil will warm up better and help the roots. The trees I am talking about are trees that have not leafed out yet. brent waltson at evergreens garden works says something along the lines of, as long as the leaves have not opened you dont need to worry about putting it in shade after root work because the damaged roots will just open whatever buds they can and if there is not enough root then just fewer buds will open (but there will still be plenty). But I agree with you that trees in leaf need protection from the sun when their roots are worked on.

Ryan Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:12 pm

Full sun it is.

Going back to what Marty suggested, there is a branch about a foot and a half up or so. What if I chopped the tree there now, then come late spring I use the buds that pop from that chop and chop the tree even lower?

Poink88 Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:20 pm

Ryan wrote:Full sun it is.

Going back to what Marty suggested, there is a branch about a foot and a half up or so. What if I chopped the tree there now, then come late spring I use the buds that pop from that chop and chop the tree even lower?

I would chop once...preferably after buds formed but before the leaves are out. Do not disturb the roots unless you have to. In your case, you have a reason (to put the tile and improve your nebari) so do it at the same time. Do the root cuts strategically, weaken/chop the strongest to give the weaker ones a chance as the tree compensates. You might have to do this a few times over the years. Avoid cutting the weak roots now if possible.

Good luck!

Ryan Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:47 pm

Poink88 wrote:
Ryan wrote:Full sun it is.

Going back to what Marty suggested, there is a branch about a foot and a half up or so. What if I chopped the tree there now, then come late spring I use the buds that pop from that chop and chop the tree even lower?
I would chop once...preferably after buds formed but before the leaves are out. Do not disturb the roots unless you have to. In your case, you have a reason (to put the tile and improve your nebari) so do it at the same time. Do the root cuts strategically, weaken/chop the strongest to give the weaker ones a chance as the tree compensates. You might have to do this a few times over the years. Avoid cutting the weak roots now if possible.

Good luck!

So then are you suggesting I do cut the roots or I don't?

Poink88 Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:49 pm

Ryan wrote:
Poink88 wrote:
I would chop once...preferably after buds formed but before the leaves are out. Do not disturb the roots unless you have to. In your case, you have a reason (to put the tile and improve your nebari) so do it at the same time. Do the root cuts strategically, weaken/chop the strongest to give the weaker ones a chance as the tree compensates. You might have to do this a few times over the years. Avoid cutting the weak roots now if possible.

Good luck!

So then are you suggesting I do cut the roots or I don't?

Read my original message Wink

Jesse Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:19 pm

This has been a very good and informative thread. Thanks to all who have contributed.

This quote by Jay just made me laugh, hehe.

drgonzo wrote:...when I went to bed last night, it was still in the 50's ...Out I dashed (4am) to grab my Trident, who's just leafing out, and bring her in...

My wife has learned to just accept this sort of madness...bless
-Jay

bucknbonsai Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:10 pm

ryan, as poiken says, just cut once. If you cut down to the existing branch and leave it, you will not get as much budding down low because you will still be having a shoot apical meristem preventing budding from occurring lower on the trunk. and also by chopping it twice in the same season you will really weaken the tree because it will put all that energy into growth that you would have to then chop off again, the roots can only send out so much food to the tree to make growth in one season. Besides, as i mentioned earlier you will have more than enough shoots to chose from for a leader if you chop real low.

Ryan Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:23 pm

Thanks everyone. I'll chop the tree this weekend and reduce the rootball by at least 50-60%. Now I just need to find a suitable container to plant it in.

Ryan Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:41 pm

Here are some rootball shots, showing lots of healthy, growing roots:

There's about a foot of rootball.

bucknbonsai Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:43 pm

take a saw and cut the bottom 60 percent of the root ball off for starters, otherwise youll never be able to tease out those roots up above.

Dave Murphy Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:33 pm

bucknbonsai wrote:take a saw and cut the bottom 60 percent of the root ball off for starters, otherwise youll never be able to tease out those roots up above.

...what he said...

bucknbonsai Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:36 pm

Dave, im saying 60% now and then even more once the top 40% are untangled

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