Japanese Red Maple

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Japanese Red Maple

Post  moyogijohn on Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:31 pm

BACK
FRONT
This is the first potting, give me your comments and suggestions plese:)-take care-JOHN

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Japanese Red Maple

Post  moyogijohn on Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:34 pm

DAUGHTER came over and posted this one for me....can it be a bonsai??? thank you take care john

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

Post  RKatzin on Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:18 pm

Hi John, You're off to a good start with this one, right up to the first branch, and then it becomes a case study in the bad habits of maples in general, and what happens if the situation is not addressed. That is the tendency to develop pencil-like stems that quickly outgrow the proportions of the tree.

My opinion is that you jumped the gun on potting the tree up and would remove it to the ground or grow-box for further development. I like the first pic for the front, but the nebari all the way around needs refinement. Plant it deeper and finer side branching will grow on those big fingers. Another reason I prefer that front is I try to avoid trunks that appear from nowhere, as that trunk does in the second pic.

Working with the second pic because you can see it better, I would chop the main trunk at the first branch to the right and shorten that branch to the upright stem. I would bend the first big branch to the left down hard and then shorten it after it is set to grow a new branch or just remove and grow a new first branch in its place.

Also remove the third trunk. The reason for this drastic chopping is that those large straight stems can not be corrected at this point. By allowing them to get large they are drawing too much juice and will continue to grow out of proportion to the tree.They must be kept in check by applying the grow and clip method.

At first chance new shoots must be clipped to turn them or be removed before their second season begins. Cutting them short keeps them from gaining too much strength and keeps them smaller. Even still they must be removed periodically and replaced with new twigs. This is the nature of these trees and if not corrected you end up with those pencils up in the top of your tree where there should be smaller, finer branching. One of the main things to be concerned with when growing maples, is not letting these big sticks develop, which they do so easily.

Let them (new shoots) grow out for most of the growing season and then cut them back to a few leaves. Next season clip as needed to keep movement in the new branch, also serving to keep it smaller by not letting it get too much momentum going. That's what I think, John, if I've learned anything, it is when mistakes are made you need to drop back and punt to get back in the game. You could work at removing all those big ckunkers and not letting more develop, but, I think in the long end of it you'll have a better tree if you take the plunge for a total revision. Best wishes from Oregon, Rick


Last edited by JimLewis on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Only to insert paragraphs for easier reading)

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

Post  JimLewis on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:34 pm

Rick,

I went in and added paragraphs to your post so it could be read a bit more easily. Big solid blocks of text get hard to follow after a while.

John,

Like Rick, I'm sure the first picture is the front, as you selected. It is a very graceful, feminine tree, starting right from the base. The heavier trunks don't bother me as much as they seem to bother Rick, but (using the first pic) that heaviest (left-hand trunk in that picture) trunk is MUCH too straight, and you have made it even straighter in the only wiring I see on the tree.

If you don't want to do as much as Rick suggests -- and his suggestions certainly would work -- I would at least pull all of the branches in by about a third and cut that straight branch by almost half (measuring from where it leaves the lower trunk), choosing a spot to cut just above one of those smaller branches going off to the left.

Then I would wire every branch -- much as I hate to wire -- but keep a close eye on the wire because the tree is entering its fastest growing period and the wire may cut into the bark quite quickly. Put a bit of back-and-forth and up-and-down movement into those smaller branches.

Finally, next time you repot, you should plant it deeper and the nebari roots should be wired out flatter, so the tree doesn't look as if it is perching on a cone of roots. You could try to wire bends into the roots, too. Wire loosely, because it's harder to cut the wires on roots that are growing into them. As Rick says, once buried a bit they should put out side roots.

How big is the tree?

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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japanese red maple

Post  moyogijohn on Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:59 pm

RICK,, You made some good points in correcting this tree.. you say use the second pic. for the front pruning the large trunk off and shorting the other one also ?? JIM,, This is the way it came to me,,it is 21 inches high fromthe root base.. agree the roots do need flatening down..you say shorten all branches and wire movement??? I didn,t pot it it came this way..it,s already pushing buds now do some work now before it leaves out??? thank you both for your help john

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

Post  RKatzin on Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:59 pm

Thank you Jim, I will keep that in mind from now on. Much obliged sir.

John, Jim brings to mind something I was curious about also, that being where have you been with the tree? From a small sapling this senerio can be headed off as the tree develops through it's stages by removing stems that out grow proportions and replacements grown in.

However, if you are beginning with a larger garden center tree which has been allowed to and in fact encouraged to grow as much big chunky branches as possible, the tree must be taken back to a new beginning. I know, personally, that it is much more painful after investing a few years into a tree.

Ok, I see your response, John. I like the first for the front, but was using the second pic for explanation because the branch I wanted to leave is more visible in that pic. Being that you just got the tree the sting won't be so hard. I did go all the way back to square one, but there are several stops along the way that could produce good stock. If it were mine to work with, I would plant it out for a few years to develop the nice nebari and when the top has pushed out I'd air-layer the pieces off for new trees.

Many possibilities here and I really want to see where you take it. Good luck, Rick

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

Post  drgonzo on Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:46 am

I second (or third?) The notion that the tree needs to be started anew. If it were mine; i'd plant it into a nice flat grow box and remove the back two "leaders" visible in the first pic, make a nice downward sloping clean cut. Use the "leader" facing forward-most as my first step down for taper, Then I would cut that "leader" down much further once I saw a lower bud/branch breaking in a good spot. At the very least I would not allow all three of those main branches to continue to grow and further thicken the spot on the trunk where they all emerge together. That sort of bulge and resulting taper loss could only be cured by stump cutting further down, best to avoid that scenario I think.

The nebari and lower trunk are a great start and this is a very worthy tree to set on the right track for future success by taking hard action now.
-Jay


Last edited by drgonzo on Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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japanese red maple

Post  moyogijohn on Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:57 am

JAY,,Thank you for your responce andsuggestions !! i have a lot of thinking to do.. create a new tree,,,everyones suggestion,, thanks take care john

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

Post  sunip on Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:33 am

Hello John
Two quick drawings how some new starting points would look like.
I would pot it deeper to get a beter nerbari and place some rubber sheets (like bicycle tube) with spagnum on the nerbari,
this speeds up fresh rooting around the trunk. ( Got the idea from the German forum)
Sunip Wink
[/url[url=https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=208&u=16274585]

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japanese red maple

Post  moyogijohn on Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:53 pm

SUNIP,, Thank you for the virtuals !! i like the 2ond one,,don,t know if i could do the first one ha ha..thanks tale care john

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

Post  jorb on Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:01 pm

i am amateur, but i wanna share my vision of this tree Smile

i think using tiny branch showed in zooming as a new leader could be good way to make nice trunk movement



in my humble opinion chosing this side of the tree as front, will prevent big scars to appear in front of the tree, they will be hidden on back and sides. Little animation for end(i hope it works corectly):



sorry for my bad english Very Happy

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

Post  drgonzo on Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:05 pm

I dont think the nebari and trunk movement from the soil line are as nice in the example that xzcv has posted but the drastic reduction to one leader and then to a smaller side branch is exactly whats called for with this tree.
-Jay

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japanese red maple

Post  moyogijohn on Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:56 pm

XZCV,,Thank you very much for your virtual for new design ..it does seem you everyone is going this way also... i wonder how long it will take to grow a tree back chopping this way.. with bonsai though you are into it for the long haul .. it does make me nervous though!!!! ha ha thanks take care john

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

Post  RKatzin on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:20 am

Hi John, figure about five years for this stage of development. At the end of that period you should have a tree with an established trunk and network of branches. That is in a gro-box or garden plot. It will take a lot longer in a pot like it is in.

Depending on when it was last repotted, if it was recent you could chop it and repot to a box or garden when it is next due. Rick

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japanese red maple

Post  moyogijohn on Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:16 am

Thank you RICK,,, I was thinking about the same thing.. too bad it is going to take that much work,,,,That is bonsai,, thank you for your time.take care john

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

Post  RKatzin on Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:07 am

Ha! Ha! John, that is exactly the kind of thinking that gets you headed down the road towards a hundred trees. When you get over the five year thing, the next step is, "I've got time, I can get something else going". Rick

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

Post  drgonzo on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:22 am

John
You must cultivate the nerves of steel that allow you to look at a 3/4 inch thick central leader with the same regard by which you would look at a tiny twig on the end of a branch.

They are only different in your mind! (I need a Yoda emoticon for the end of this sentence)
-Jay

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

Post  attila on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:54 am

drgonzo wrote:John
You must cultivate the nerves of steel that allow you to look at a 3/4 inch thick central leader with the same regard by which you would look at a tiny twig on the end of a branch.

They are only different in your mind! (I need a Yoda emoticon for the end of this sentence)
-Jay

yes also it is true that one should enjoy the journey and not focus on the destination only, it is very easy to be impatient as you look at some amazing looking trees then wish it would appear overnight(unless you have a hefty wallet!!) but there are so many joys of growing plant over the season that you never be bored of course all the learning as well as practicing.
so enjoy the journey
Attila

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maple paint

Post  tap pi lu on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:06 am

wao thank you for viewing photos. I'm dreaming of success as you. I also cut the stems and plug into the ground but it turns out the leaf buds and develop and die slowly because not developed roots, do not understand the reason why.

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japanese red maple

Post  moyogijohn on Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:47 am

Thhank you all for your comments..i am away from home for 5 days so i will be checking the maple out when i get home... i will have to have a lot of nerve with this one i am sure !!!!!!! thanks take care john

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Re: Japanese Red Maple

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