Mycorrhizae Product?

Does this mean that one specific plant has its own specific mycorrhiza which is not symbiotic with another plant species?

Yes.

RKatzin wrote:Ah Jay, it's a small, small world in there and we probably know more about outer space than we do about the life in our soil.

You know, Its a shame to admit, but your absolutely right!
It is exactly because the complexity of all these interactions is so poorly understood, that I give them the benefit of the doubt, and treat the soil microorganisms as best I can seeing as I don't give them much to go on organically in my soil mixes.
-Jay

Thanks everybody.

drgonzo wrote: ... ...In Bonsai soil that has a high degree of inorganic material the action of these microbes is of course diminished as are their overall populations, ... ...

RKatzin wrote: ... ...I do use a ton of organic compost and I gather forest humus from the forest floor, pretty much free stuff for the gathering. I got the microbes and they are the life of the soil... ...

So, let me test my understanding....
If I'd like to have the mycorrhizae around my plants' root-balls, then I do not use completely inorganic substrate and furthermore if I'd like to facilitate the growth of inoculated fungi in my soil, then I need the microbes which I can get from organic compost/humus.
Are the above correct?

Hi Nellie, I'll be brief. If you use a predominately organic substrate then all your organisms and fungi are in the soil. It does no harm to add mycorrhizal fungi, but an expense you could do without.

When using inorganic substrate your living organisms are not present or at least their numbers are greatly reduced and fungi must be added and a chemical solution used to serve the function of the microbes.

If you use an organic subtrate and chemical fertilizers that do not support the soil food web, then the populations of organizims are greatly reduced and the subtrate ceases to function properly and the tree suffers. Replacement therapy is merited, but after the chemical action of the fertilizer has ceased. -Rick

I owe you big time, Rick!
Thank you very much!

From this (link) entertaining and informative article on mushroom hunting:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/fl20111016x1.html

Matsutake are notoriously hard to find, but, as Mizuguchi explains, nature gives us some clues. As their name suggests, they are found alongside the Japanese matsu (pine), in particular the akamatsu (Pinus densiflora). Rather than emerging near the trees' roots, they are always a short distance away from the distinctive red trunks, and begin to appear at the onset of the akisame (autumn rains).

So, don't bother to consult a calendar — just follow your nose, literally. When the white, yellow or orange flowers of the kinmokusei (sweet osmanthus, Osmanthus fragrans) throw out their delicious scent, it's time to head for the hills.

Generally mushrooms spend most of their lives underground or inside a dying or dead tree and only "explode" to the surface for a brief period to send out spores.

If I collect anything in the wild I study the area carefully for signs of trouble. I lost a beautiful beech to beach blight, which is found around my area. Scotch pine has had problem in upstate northeastern New York. The American Chestnut still grows around here but it only gets to 15 or 20 feet before it dies back, a victim of Endothia parasitica fungus. Ceratocystis ulmi is the fungus that killed the American Elm. The above mushroom article indicates to me that if one is to collect soils/compost/etc. one should look for those in areas that contain healthy specimens of the same species as your bonsai. The commercial product could turn out to be a safer bet. I still wonder about the "broadcast of several fungi" in it. For example MYCONOX, as stated earlier, contains the spores of no fewer than fifteen species of mycorrhizal fungus, which guarantees that whatever species you grow, there will be at least one species of fungus that will benefit your bonsai - and your flower or vegetable garden too! Microclimate, soils, plants, insects and fungi all factor into what does well where.

Another mushroom article worth reading here http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/fe20080611a1.html

Otsuki says he's found these fantastic fungi only in native forests with many large trees, and where humans have interfered little — in particular on the wooded land surrounding shrines. Mycena lux-coeli is found almost solely on large shi-no-ki trees (Castanopsis sieboldii, or chinkapins in English), one of the dominant climax species in the native forests of the Kii Peninsula.

But while various types of mushrooms are abundant in native broadleaf forests in Japan, they are scarce in the man-made hinoki (Japanese cypress) and sugi (Japanese cedar) plantations that now make up nearly half of Japan's forests.

In other words, this unusual species depends on native broadleaf forest for its survival. Otsuki says that taking visitors out to see the mushrooms is one way to raise their awareness about natural forests in general.

"I want to show people how interesting the forest is," he says.

I'm about to prepare small growing area with lots of charcoal to see what effect that will have on plants. Carbon has the ability to "grab" trace elements and keep them where they are available to the plant. If anyone has tried this, I'd be interested in hearing about your experience.

Bob

RKatzin wrote:
When using inorganic substrate your living organisms are not present or at least their numbers are greatly reduced and fungi must be added and a chemical solution used to serve the function of the microbes.

If you use an organic subtrate and chemical fertilizers that do not support the soil food web, then the populations of organizims are greatly reduced and the subtrate ceases to function properly and the tree suffers. Replacement therapy is merited, but after the chemical action of the fertilizer has ceased. -Rick

You can simplify (oversimplify?) it and state that Inorganic soils work better with inorganic nutrients and visa versa, thats been my experience as I've played around with various soil and fert' combos.
-Jay

Robert Taylor wrote:I'm about to prepare small growing area with lots of charcoal to see what effect that will have on plants. Carbon has the ability to "grab" trace elements and keep them where they are available to the plant. If anyone has tried this, I'd be interested in hearing about your experience.

No real experience but my brother (a Chemist) used to grow orchids and he used charcoal a lot as a planting medium. The big advantage of using charcoal (I heard) is that it will not deteriorate, drains well, and it "ADSORB" fertilizer & minerals...made available and easily accessible to the plant later.

You can simplify (oversimplify?) it and state that Inorganic soils work better with inorganic nutrients and visa versa, thats been my experience as I've played around with various soil and fert' combos.

I think you may have it backwards. If you use a mostly INorganic mix you should use an organic fertilizer as the organic molecules ADsorb to the inorganic soil grains -- or so a horticultural chemist explained to me some time ago.

Inorganic chemicals pass right through an inorganic soil. The reverse is true to some extent, also.

JimLewis wrote:

You can simplify (oversimplify?) it and state that Inorganic soils work better with inorganic nutrients and visa versa, thats been my experience as I've played around with various soil and fert' combos.

I think you may have it backwards. If you use a mostly INorganic mix you should use an organic fertilizer as the organic molecules ADsorb to the inorganic soil grains -- or so a horticultural chemist explained to me some time ago.

Inorganic chemicals pass right through an inorganic soil. The reverse is true to some extent, also.

Its more a matter of providing instantly available nutriment as opposed to relying on the involvement of soil microorganisms.
-Jay

It's a matter of chemistry.

JimLewis wrote:It's a matter of chemistry.

Your absolutely correct Jim. the process of nutrient absorption in plant roots and microorganism metabolization are both functions that can be correctly grouped under organic chemistry.

-Jay

Ha!Ha! True that Jim, and we're not chemists, and therein lies the rub!

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and information. I didn't mean to change the topic. I set aside an area of my garden to overwinter my bonsai. I either set them in with just their root mass or sink them into the ground in a plastic container. My larch trees are always full of mycorrhizal fungus weather in or out of their pots. I've had several of them since the early 1970's (and they've hardly grown an inch).

I've been cutting wood charcoal throughout the winter into tiny bits 1/8 to 1/2 inch size and soaking them in fertilizer and trace elements to create a sort of time release charcoal base. This process might happen naturally in the soil but I thought I'd expedite matters by presoaking plus I'd have some idea of what might be available from the start. My soil was originally very acidic but I've modified it for decades with compost and organic matter. I'm not doing scientific tests at this stage I'm just curious to see what happens over the next few years. I plan to grow several different kinds of plants plus a few bonsai starters. I'll grow the same plants in my regular soil for comparison. My regular bonsai soil base is primarily Turface and crushed stone that contains dolomite. The dolomite is another reason why I thought to try charcoal directly.

Charcoal is good for Endo-Mycorhizae !you can replace it with...honey (good for endo and ecto).
(4% in water, once by week after normal watering, march to june, and september to november)
Charcoal or honey ....or glucose, are carbon resource necesary for the growth of the mycelia

For endo you can buy inoculants and introduce some various species of Glomus
for others (Ecto) just add spores or pieces of mushroom in the substrate
(for spores proceed like this

and what mushroom ??? : for ecto you can mix, for all trees !!! :
Suillus, Laccaria, Hebeloma,Pisolithus, Thelephora, Rhizopogon...
they are sufficient , and generic for all trees with ectomycorrhizae...in fact they have the capacity
to live in bonsai pot with young or old trees and various substrate...It's not really the same case with some specific
mushroom associated with specific trees in nature...impossible to have them in pot.

for ecto , you can add 3 % of bark compost in the inorganic substrate...just for having good bacteria (not necessary in a old substrate)
for endo , 3% of charcoal.

For nitrogen :
Ecto :proteins, amino acids and ammonium (NH4 +)
Endo :Nitrate (NO3-)

Phosphore ;
use fertilizer wih - 10% of phosphorus !


My study about mycorrhizae and bonsai in french, if there is someone who want to translate it in english....!!!!:
http://www.parlonsbonsai.com/Mieux-comprendre-les-mycorhizes-en.html

a young pine , 1 year after collecting (in coco substrate, inoculated by myself with Hebeloma and Suillus)



Laccaria Amethysta inoculated to a young oak one year before : in last november ..2 mushrooms !!!!


...my production of mycelia (suillus)

other

....i can introduce it in a pot for ioculation !

Pascal, ton article est un trisor!
Merci bien!

...merci !!!! thanks !

If you have question, i'll try to answer...with my good english !

...

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parlonsbonsai.com%2FMieux-comprendre-les-mycorhizes-en.html&lp=fr_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

Thanks for posting and nice photos!

Bob

...palmatum cuttings done last year, in coco substrate (mixed with river sand). I add commercial product with vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal (VAM): Glomus (intraradices,Mosseae)...
I use the same product for : juniperus, ulmus, other acers....


endomycorrhizae are not visible...

...For this case : it is not mycorrhiza !
It's a juniperus !...and all juniperus have VAM (endo)mycorrhiza,...and not visible.

it's a saprotroph fungi, probably Trichoderma.

other photo of ectomycorrhiza on pine :