Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

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Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Damienindesert on Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:40 pm

Hi friends

Just returned from a field trip (reptile related) in Um Al Quwain, and found some Ghaf trees Prosopis cineraria Growing in the apparent formation of suckers, but with the host tree having died away. I never took photos, but did a little sand clearing around the bases and found no evidence of roots anywhere near the surface.

Question: Is it viable to ground-layer such trees in order to harvest them as yamadori at a later stage?

They are all in the process of dying, due to the erosion of the formerly stabilised dunes on which they grow and the intensive depredations of camels, donkeys and goats. The trees themselves are hard to explain in that they are so striking and beautiful and range in size from Shohin right through to about a meter. Girth and taper on some specimens is amazing. I'll be back next week and will be sure to photograph them then.

The actual site is almost certainly going to be developed before long, so I treat their removal with some urgency.

Thanks

D

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  AK_Panama on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:12 pm

Dude this is definitely going to start another fight over the correct use of the word "yamadori." Apparently it is not meant to be used for anything other than recollections done in mountains.

Sadly I can´t help with this topic as I have never recollected anything myself (yet). I´m looking forward to others´replies to this post to learn more on the topic.

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Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  will baddeley on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:20 pm

Hello Damien. We all understand the more commonly used meaning of yamadori, so no worries. Sand is extremely difficult to collect from as the roots are always a long way out or down. I would imagine this is more so in your case as water is minimal. If you intend to layer, with what frequency can you go back and inspect and top up with water?

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Damienindesert on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:56 pm

Thanks will. I can go back fairly regulary. At least weekly. I can also probably get some assistance from the local camel farmers that live there. Apart from camels they are pretty agriculturally orientated people, and super friendly.

@AK: 'Dude' thanks for the rebuke. Keep the next one to yourself though. I'm not in the mood for semantic nazzis.

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Advice on Deep-rooted Yamadori

Post  bonsaisr on Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:09 pm

Have you or anyone had this species as bonsai before? Prosopis is what we call in English mesquite. The American species is famous for its charcoal. It is one of the main trees of the chaparral or maquis ecosystem. Americans have been trying to bonsai our mesquite for years with little success, because it has an enormous taproot and does not like to be in a pot. There is an Israeli Prosopis called hizma, but I don't know if they use it for bonsai.
Iris


Last edited by bonsaisr on Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Remove quotation marks)

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Damienindesert on Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:29 pm

Thanks for the reply Iris. As bonsai, I've had no experience with the species, although it is very widely cultivated locally for green belt production, and the transplanting process, from bag to sand is a fairly rough affair. I suspect that the Ghaf is probably the same species as the Israeli ones.

Regards

Damien

(ps. hope you prefer the new pic alien )

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  drgonzo on Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:11 pm

If its going to offer you a tap root of any power your best bet not only for collection but also for use as bonsai will be the ground layer your thinking of. Sounds like fun, working with 'Camel-ed' pre-bonsai! Looking forward to some pictures if you can.

The only time I have been able to successfully fight a tap root is by growing from seed.
-Jay

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  fiona on Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:00 pm

Damienindesert wrote:I'm not in the mood for semantic nazzis.
That would be semantic nazis rather than nazzis.

Ahhhh shoot!!! I just did what you didn't want. affraid Evil or Very Mad Wink


Just the spirit of fun since I can't be of any mortal use to you in your bonsai question. Good luck with it though. What have you got to lose?

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Damienindesert on Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:11 pm

fiona wrote:
Damienindesert wrote:I'm not in the mood for semantic nazzis.
That would be semantic nazis rather than nazzis.

Ahhhh shoot!!! I just did what you didn't want. affraid Evil or Very Mad Wink


Just the spirit of fun since I can't be of any mortal use to you in your bonsai question. Good luck with it though. What have you got to lose?

Haha! Hmf Embarassed

Nice one Fiona. I've been brought back to earth a total of four times today. The other three were in a manner you DON'T want to know. Metinks a wee sleep will put my chickens back in their coop. (47 hours awake and counting)

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  AK_Panama on Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:15 pm

Are you trying to break a record? Bad case of insomnia? Trying to trip without drugs?

Dude...go to bed!!!

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Damienindesert on Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:27 pm

"Dude" (Boy I hate that word) Haha never mind AK. Now I think it is insomnia! It didn't start that way. We needed to do stuff for work that kept us up all night, but.....

I'm still What a Face awake, exhausted and unable to sleep. It's going to be a year before my sleep cycle forgives me.

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  AK_Panama on Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:59 pm

hahahahah work that keeps you up that long and makes you work in the desert must surely pay well!

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re advice on deep rooted yamadori

Post  john5555leonard on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:14 am

nice one damien, i agree , anyway about the yamadori , if time is of the essence i can see it taking a while to root these trees why not pay these camel guys to dig up the whole lot with as much tap root as you can get then re establish them at home then air layer later . which ever way you decide you have nothing to lose, only your time and effort. regards john

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  GerhardGerber on Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:42 am

Yo Dood Twisted Evil

Sorry Damien, couldn't resist! Laughing

If this is the same Prosopis invasive we have here I wouldn't bother.
Long thin yellowish seed pods that actually taste sorta nice, even for humans?

As stated it's a bit of a problem locally, there are efforts to eradicate them, but it's not that easy. Considering the growth habbit as I've seen it, it's likely to be a nightmare.

I would actually tend to think a ground layer would work though, tough trees.

Cheers
Gerhard

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Damienindesert on Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:01 pm

John and Gerhard, thanks for your replies.

Gerhard, you suck jocolor but I'm still willing to justify your post with a reply, just because 'yo dood' sound rather comical in a Namibian accent.....Bliksem ThumbsUp . Prosopis glandulosa is the common introduced tree in Namibia and is quite different in many respects.

John, what I plan on doing is to expose as much of the root system on one of the smaller suckers and if there is any trace of adventitious roots, I'll remove it as an experiment.

What, do you think, would be the best plan of action in giving the tree the best chance? I'd obviously like to prep soil and container in advance. I've had reasonable results with Acacia and a few others by soaking the root'ball' in water for a day or so and then popping it into a deep container with gravel, charcoal and cocofibre.

Thanks again guys. Teusday's D-day.

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re deep rooted yamadori

Post  john5555leonard on Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:45 pm

hi damien , sounds like a good plan to me. i see you are into reptiles do you know anything about red eared fresh water turtles, if yes i,ll send you a private note so as not to bore everybody else . regards john

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Damienindesert on Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:57 pm

I think I could help you out. I've never bonsai'd a turtle, and, unpruned, they tend to get out of control. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  AK_Panama on Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:17 pm

Hey Duude!! Razz

Don´t forget the pictures...let us know how it goes.

Cheers!

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Damienindesert on Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:33 pm

Yes. Bracing myself for another all-nighter. I hope we get there before sunset so I can get decent pics. Of course, bonsai is down on the list of priorities, considering I'm being paid for my time. It's all about geckos and skinks.

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Jeremy on Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:49 pm

Hi,
Have you seen any Uromastics on your trips?

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Damienindesert on Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:56 pm

Hi Jeremy.

We get plenty of Uromastyx microlepis here. The biggest I've seen is about 70cm. On the border with Saudi Arabia, we might get U. aegyptia, although (taxonomically speaking), this has not been confirmed yet.

Regards

Damien

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Damienindesert on Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:53 am

Aaargh, that's Uromastyx lepteini, not microlepis. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Jesse McMahon on Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:00 am

damien- are aegyptia the yellow and blue ones? very cool reptiles..

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Jeremy on Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:49 am

Hi,
That sounds like ornatus.
Now back to bonsai........... ?

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

Post  Damienindesert on Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:55 pm

Jesse McMahon wrote:damien- are aegyptia the yellow and blue ones? very cool reptiles..

Nope. Big dark grey ones that turn yellow in hot weather.

Back to the bonsai, as was so subtly suggested Wink , I didn't get photos of the cluster of suckers mentioned above as we arrived well after dark and I had to devote virtually all my time to work and sorting out issues with assistants and such. I removed one of the smallest and least significant of the living suckers though.

I just finished potting it. I got the main umbilicus with a half dozen fibrous roots. The tree, although not the most beautiful specimen, is still rather nice, but, if it survives, I'll have to layer it to remove an obvious reverse taper. Ramification is very good. I'll take some pictures later tonight, but now, I'm enjoying a wee dram and winding down for a snooze. I'm knackered after 2 hours sleep and some dodgy-looking spider biting me on my arm, which would now put Popeye to shame. Mad

Brilliant night reptile-wise, but that's for another forum.

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Re: Advice on deep-rooted Yamadori please

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