Sickley Larch

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Sickley Larch

Post  bonsai monkey on Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:14 am

Hi guys,
Herewith a close-up of the Larch that I mentioned in a previous post.



The image on the left was taken on Saturday morning and the left image was taken Sunday pm. You can see how badly the tree has suffered in one day. This tree, along with my Larch group were on the same shelf as my Crab Apple & Pyracantha which look like they have fire blight but I ain't got a scooby what this is.

The swirls are starting to discolour in the centre and work its way out. Unfortunatly this Larch seems to be suffering, at various stages, all over where as my group only seemed to have 1 infected brach which has now been removed. Any ideas???

bonsai monkey
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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  AlainK on Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:02 pm

To me, it looks like a symptom of root rot : have you checked if nothing is blocking the drain holes? Maybe Fosetyl-Al ("Aliette", don't know under what brand name you can find it in the UK) would do it some good.

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Root Rot

Post  bonsai monkey on Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:12 pm

Oh Crap!!!!!! No

I've not heard of the product you mention. Is there anything else I can do????

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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  JimLewis on Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:56 pm

Is phytophthora a problem with larch?

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Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  Kev Bailey on Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:14 pm

I'm not aware of any reports of phytophthora infecting Larix species, so I took a look around. Can't find any positives but this one seems to indicate a negative, by not reporting any infection after testing.

http://outreach.cof.orst.edu/sod/Presentations/Chastagner.pdf

The pdf makes interesting reading, only look if you don't mind seeing lots of "snuff" tree pictures. Shocked

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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  AlainK on Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:27 pm

bonsai monkey wrote:Oh Crap!!!!!! No

I've not heard of the product you mention. Is there anything else I can do????

Since Wikipedia is under Creative commons licensing, I can post the excerpt from their article about Phosphorous acid :

A large quantity of phosphorous acid is used as phosphatic fertilizer. [6] Pure phosphorous acid is also used for preparing phosphite salts, such as monopotassium phosphite or aluminum phosphonite. These salts, as well as aqueous solutions of pure phosphorous acid, have shown effectiveness in controlling a variety of microbial plant diseases—in particular, treatment using either trunk injection or foliar containing phosphorous acid salts is indicated in response to infections by phytophthora and pythium-type plant pathogens (both within class oomycetes, known as water molds), such as dieback/root rot and downy mildew.[7] Anti-microbial products containing salts of phosphorous acid are marketed in Australia as 'Yates Anti-Rot'; and in the United States of America, for example, aluminum salts of phosphorous acid (known generically as 'Fosetyl-Al') are sold under the trade name 'Aliette'. Phosphorus acid and its salts, unlike phosphoric acid, are highly toxic and should be handled carefully. Only about 1 g of phosphorus acid are lethal to an adult human.[8][9]

If it is available in the US and in Australia, it should be in the UK too, under one name or another.

I found this page listing different names, it might help you :

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/chemicals/cn/Fosetyl-Al.html

And this one too :

http://sitem.herts.ac.uk/aeru/iupac/Reports/363.htm

"Aliette" is a must for bonsai growers : I water all my trees with a solution of this, then two weeks later, just before budding out, I spray them, then two weeks after, i give them a third treat of the solution when watering. It is a very good way of preventing a lot of diseases.

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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  Kev Bailey on Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:18 pm

I must add that I believe that no-one should routinely treat all their trees against everything that might one day affect them. It is overkill, a waste of time and resources and a danger to ourselves and our planet. Sensible observation and a minimal amount of treatment, as and when necessary, should be practised. This is still far more care than most trees in the wild receive and the vast majority of them are perfectly OK.

Phosphoric acid is produced in trees treated with Fosetyl-Al, this has been tested by Dr E. Malus & L. Tosi Phosphorous acid residues in apples after foliar fertilization: Results of field trials

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“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

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Root Inspection

Post  bonsai monkey on Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:50 pm

I think that we can rule out Root Rot (well I hope so!) as I've lifted the tree from it's pot when I got home and the root ball is not soaking wet and the root tips are white and not black. I did an emergency re-pot into a larger container, put in extra drainage (although it had some left from the original potting in 2008) and teased in some new soil but left the roots undisturbed.

The infection does seem to be spreading although the top of the tree seems fine at the moment. Still hopeful that the wee little fellow will recover but it would still be interesting to get a handle on the problem. I did feed the tree earlier in the month, could I have gone too far??

bonsai monkey
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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  Norma on Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:04 pm

Something similar happened to my bonsai which I suspect was the result of my "anal" neighbor. I've seen him on his hands and knees pulling up clover in his yard! Usually I'm a "live-and-let-live" neighbor but I told him that if he sprayed again for weeds and it ruined an expensive bonsai...he would get the bill. He took it better than I thought he would but he does admire my trees and I'm sure just wasn't thinking about the spray's drift !

Be sure you look for an outside source before treating your bonsai. The state of Minnesota can be very wet in the spring.....I frequently give my pots a tilt for drainage. If your bonsai have had a new repotting this constant wet soil will rot the newly cut roots. Also when cold and wet I use heated seedling mats for my new repots.

Hope you find the answer....let us know !!

Norma

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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  JimLewis on Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:57 pm

Kev Bailey wrote:I must add that I believe that no-one should routinely treat all their trees against everything that might one day affect them. It is overkill, a waste of time and resources and a danger to ourselves and our planet. Sensible observation and a minimal amount of treatment, as and when necessary, should be practised. This is still far more care than most trees in the wild receive and the vast majority of them are perfectly OK.

Phosphoric acid is produced in trees treated with Fosetyl-Al, this has been tested by Dr E. Malus & L. Tosi Phosphorous acid residues in apples after foliar fertilization: Results of field trials

Virtually no one believes in "just-in-case" application of pesticides any more.

It's a waste of money; if there's nothing to kill, why apply it?
Few pesticides leave much of a residue any more because of environmental and human health issues, so there's little or no lasting effect. If a bug isn't there within a day or two, it'll be home free anyway.
It contributes to the development of pesticide resistance in the diseases and insects we want to control.

So, don't do it!

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  AlainK on Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:37 pm

OK, I'll stick to prayer.

No, just kidding, I'm not that kind of person any more. pirat

I really don't think that the small amount of chemicals (and by the way, what's a "chemical"?...) that I use on my trees will harm the planet.

I have trees in the ground that have died, apple and pear trees : they probably got phytophtora. Never mind, I'll plant others, instead of bone-trees, I'll plant seed-trees.

I tried black soap and tobacco infusion against critters, all right.

My living doesn't depend on the crop I get, so if they die let them die (although I always feel sad when a living thing has to part, even when I don't know them personally).

I gather nettles from the riverside : I put them in a trench 2-3 weeks before I plant my tomatoes, good source of natural nitrate, and keeps the "pucerons" away.

But, H***, when you see one one the trees you've been looking for dying, a tiny wee bit of chemicals should be a complete no-no ?...

Do we, bonsai enthusiasts (and amateur gardeners) really think that OUR care of our trees is a danger to the earth?...

This is ridiculous. Like every religious moralizing blahblah, I am certain that the ones who gives lessons on that subjects are the first ones to break the rules.

A sick tree needs an appropriate treatment.

A child bleeding his life out needs a blood transfusion.

A raped child needs surgery.

Stone-age people are in danger of waning out if they are of the Neanderthal species.

And the earth is not flat.

AlainK
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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  Kev Bailey on Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:17 pm

I'm glad that we agree on most things Alain and appreciate your tip on organic feed for Tomatoes. I'll try it this year.

when you see one one the trees you've been looking for dying, a tiny wee bit of chemicals should be a complete no-no ?

No, that is exactly when they should be used. When you have seen evidence of a problem and correctly identified the cause, the best cure should be investigated and used.

Do we, bonsai enthusiasts (and amateur gardeners) really think that OUR care of our trees is a danger to the earth?...

Yes, some of us do. It is the mindset that is the problem. The attitude, "my actions are so small that they don't count", has got to change. Everyone really has to understand that each individuals action adds up to the cumulative desecration of our environment. Until we all take that on board, I believe that our childrens future is very bleak.

There is a good reason why many of the chemicals available for gardeners have disappeared from the shelves.
affraid

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“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.” - Charles Darwin.

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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  AlainK on Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:50 pm

Kev Bailey wrote:(...) Until we all take that on board, I believe that our childrens future is very bleak.

There is a good reason why many of the chemicals available for gardeners have disappeared from the shelves.
affraid

OK.

Another tip for keeping aphids away :

1/2 litre of 75% alcohol (about a pint)
1 (full) tablespoon of ground cinnamon

Stir well. Stir again from time to time for a couple of hours.

Water plant with tap water.

Spray alcohol + cinnamon on attacked plants.

Enjoy the smell, it isn't harmful to us earthlings.

Next morning, aphids gone. In the evening, plants get a shower, leaves fret out of pleasure.

Very Happy

AlainK
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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  AlainK on Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:56 pm

For cancer, X-rays, and chemio.

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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  Nina on Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:15 am

OK, not to preach, but Aliette can't be used for some pathogens now because they have developed resistance. What's the best way to get resistant pathogens? To spray when it isn't needed. You *can* harm the planet if you're careless with pesticides.

I wouldn't spray anything on that larch because I can't tell what is wrong with it. I would need to see the plant and plate the dying needles on culture media. When I've had larches, I've had the lower branches die just because they were shaded out by upper branches. This could be an insect problem. It could be anything. However:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r1-r4/spf/fhp/field_guide/122-123lnd.htm

Where are you, BM?

Nina
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Re: Sickley Larch

Post  Nina on Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:25 am

Ah, you are in the UK. I see from the internet that Meria laricis, the larch blight pathogen, is present there. You might want to check that out. Note: Aliette will do nothing for this pathogen. Chlorothalonil, if you can use it, will work, but again, try to make a correct diagnosis before spraying anything.

Nina
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Re: Sickley Larch

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