pemphis acidula

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:47 pm

Quatrefi,

thanks. that 2nd tree is really lovely...i wish you can see it in the flesh.
pemphis in france? that would be great but, no can do... Even Sam from Hawaii find it difficult to keep the specie alive.

regards,
jun
Smile

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:53 pm

Jose Luis,
thanks for the very detailed input...I hope Sam will take your advice with his remaining trees. Its sad he lost lot of his precious pemphis.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:33 pm

Jose,

I started off the seeds in a sterile mix of 90 to 95 % crushed gravel and the rest as cocopeat. I did the salt spray for about three weeks when I had germination. I only planted 10 seeds and saved 10 more for later.
3 survived and later just 1. The one is in a mix of 75 % plus 25 % cocopeat and growth was slow. However I went to Budi's site and he kept recommending fertilizer. So I added on some Nutricote [ osmocote type ] and the growth is now way faster.

The pot is only a 3 incher [ 7 mm ]. Next year I will upgrade to a 5 or 6 incher [ 13 to 15 mm ] whichever looks better for continued growth.

The pemphis from what I am reading is responding like a newly dug buttonwood. I have grown the buttonwood from seed and seedling. Once you stop the salt applications the leaves become thinner and finer, same for the seagrape. This island may be small enough for a light sprinkling of salt to be permanently present in the air. Though salt corrosion of iron stops just 1/2 mile from the windswept coasts and most of our land rises to around 300 feet [ 90 metres or so ] from the eastern coast . If I am lucky, by next year I will be able to take small cuttings and really let the mother grow.

Small point - the favourite no 2 tree image - is most Japanese in appearance. Interesting.
Until.
Khaimraj

* I am about to start growing a Buttonwood to match the typical tree shape of the tree down here. I am also hoping for the amazing trunks that develop.


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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:44 pm

...thats why its in a japanese inspired pot. good observation Khaimraj. keen eye.
I also got iron wood styled in japanese way.
I must learn all the styles to learn what should be our own style.
southern chinese style is the most difficult to imitate for me... very intricate.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:07 pm

If you mean the clip and grow style [ Lingnan ] , then you are looking at Classical Ink Paintings and you have to factor in that those trees are composed in a painted landscape, and viewed from one angle.

So you can either do 2 dimensional efforts and hang for display against walls as seen in photographs of Chinese houses, or use the - typical - shapes of trees on your side, as the Ancient Chinese did in their paintings.

I prefer my trees more full, but with the spaces for the birds to fly through. Domes within domes.

This was not left for you Jun, but for the other readers, you know all of this already.

Painting a line and floating into a pigmented reality, or a dream, as you wish.
Khaimraj

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  jrodriguez on Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:46 pm

We have a similar species in the caribbean, Suriana Maritima. It requires the same care as pemphis. A lot of enthusiasts in the island have tried to grow these without success. Many incredible specimens have died because of inadequate care or impatience. Below a suriana maritima, six months after being harvested.


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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:53 pm

Jose,

send seed...........
Khaimraj

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  jrodriguez on Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:31 pm

Khaimraj,

Don't you have these in your island?

Kind regards,

Jose Luis

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Rob Kempinski on Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:34 pm

jun wrote:gm.it,
i think pemphis will ........ If you could get at least one I am sure you gonna love it...the number of days of collecting this specie for bonsai purposes are numbered, and thats good for nature.

jun Smile

This sentence is indeed revealing. With the emphasis on collected trees I wonder how long it will be before this applies to all species everywhere.

When bonsai collectors are starting to appear in general literature as thieves, that is painting a bad public view.

For example, in the web link Khaimraj Seepersad posted a naturalist noticed about Philippine pemphis "On the uninhabited beach also grows bantigue (or Pemphis acidula) a favorite of bonsai collectors. Bantigue was already ransacked to almost extinction in the islands off Luzon. But they say that the Luzon bantigues are coveted because they are typhoon scarred, which is attractive to bonsai hunters. The bantigues here are almost straight. I hope they stay that way to assure their existence."

A similar comment has been made about bonsai collectors and stunted Bald Cypress trees in Southern Florida USA (in the Everglades actually) in the book the Orchid Thief, page 158. "In the Big Cypress Swamp, dwarf cypresses are regularly stolen and sold as bonsai trees." The author lumps bonsai collectors in with all manner of plant and wildlife thieves.

I wonder how many of the trees that we ooh and awe over on these pages were collected legally?

For an art that is supposed to be reflecting nature, there seems to be something downright wrong about stealing trees from nature to own them and worse to sell them. And many are doomed to die quick deaths too.


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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:18 pm

This is a very good point Rob and unfortunately illegal digging is rife. There are several members on this site that collect illegally, not only for themselves but for monetary gain. In my earlier bonsai days, I collected without permission, mainly on wasteland and Forestry commission land. Apart from the fact it is against the law, it is often to the detriment to the tree, as the collection is often rushed. Talking to people who dig on National parks or sites of special scientific interest, (which is where the best trees often are) collectors often minimise and justify there activity with comments like "no body can appreciate it where it is" and "I only take a few from each area". There is little consideration or knowledge of the impact to the diversity and ecology of these micro environments. These trees have often been clinging to life for centuries. They are not there as an individual but as a part of a much bigger picture. We have a history in the UK of extinct or very rare plants, due to overzealous collectors. A case in point is the Lady Slipper Orchid, Which was revered by Victorian plant hunters. For a while it was thought to be extinct until one plant was discovered. This plants location is heavily guarded and secret, as plant collectors would take it without a second thought.

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:16 pm

Jose,

the island of Trinidad is unique amongst the the West Indian Islands, supposedly part of Venezuela a long time ago and bathed by the Orinocco. Vegetation is more akin to Amazonian than the desert types of the rest of the Caribbean.

Capped in clay and not igneous rock. Exposed igneous occurs in rare zones, cliffs of the Northern side. We would probably be better suited for clay for Bonsai pots. When I have enough time, I will be able to tell you more, but for now, my few handmade bonsai pots handle our weather very well.

We have to import most of the trees used for Bonsai, even the ones used on the other islands.
Khaimraj

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  crush on Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:45 pm

Hi..Jun,

How many years are your Phempis, do you started from a material or have them as they are at the moment.

Thanks


Cheers,

Crush

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:54 pm

Rob and Will,

I think all bonsai collected and owned by individual should have some sort of certificate or be registered in an agency of a particular country. like that of a registered dog or other exotic pet. and this certificate of registration should be shown during bonsai shows.
For how long are we going to have discussions like this without any concrete solutions being implemented? There are very few people who are responsible enough to know what is right, the rest are just soooo dumb to understand the impact of what they are doing.

regards,
jun
Sad

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:56 pm

Rob, Will,

let's not mince words. Yamadori are more prevalent than growing by seed or cuttings or nursery stock. See the site Exotic Bonsai - where the owner admits that most of the trees are collected. Or see also a well known Bonsai man on one of the on-line video sites, with a really sad yamadori and how he carves it to produce a sad looking thingee in a pot.

It is fun to take something from nature, the thrill of the hunt. On our side for a few TT$, you can get a legal permit to take what you want from nature. I don't know if that extends to forest reserves, as I have never done this [ taken from the Reserve ]. Everything I have collected is from the unconcreted public drains, where anything growing is killed by the street cleaners, armed with cutlasses and brushcutters. I also collect only 1/2 to 1 inch [ 2.5 cm ] trunks. High speed of growth - 4 growing seasons.
It takes a while to research new trees and not all are useful.

______________________________________________________________________
Here is an interesting one from -

http://www.kaizenbonsai.com/shop/index.php?cPath=94

"There is a thought, particularly among folk new to our hobby, that bonsai trees must be grown from seed and, whilst it is possible to achieve it's going to take a long time. We are yet to see a seed grown tree that is worthy of the name Bonsai that's taken less than twelve years. Growing from seed is a tricky business that takes a great deal of skill and time, most of which is spent doing nothing at all. Not a good recipe for an absorbing hobby!"
_________________________________________________________________________

Most of the Yamadori I am seeing are out of balance, and really should be tucked away for 10 to 20 years of training, before being shown.
Impatience and wanting to make a name.

Years ago our Orchid Society got a wake up call, when the complaints about raping the forest became very loud. Hopefully they have stopped ?

On our side until a drain is concreted, and the rate of re-seeding, it would be impossible to run out of stock. Some of it can be quite large of trunk as road cleaners never dig to remove, only cutlass or other down to a stump.
Presently I have a subject, that I know makes a good bonsai, but has never been identified and in about 5 years it will be presentable. It regrows from roots. So the spot I got it from already has 3 new trees at 6 feet [ 2 m] in height with 1 inch trunks.

Now here is the kicker - I am the problem - most folk on this side are too lazy to do research in anything other than what might be present in someone's yard. But with me doing research, and folk coming into my yard, seeing test subjects, the subjects inspire digging on land reserves.
So I have for years allowed no one other than a few close friends into the yard and I no longer publicly exhibit.

I figure we have probably, possibly 10 or so trees locally growing that may make passable Bonsai and maybe 3 or so that will be comparable to the Zelkova and the Maples.
Until.
Khaimraj




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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:02 pm

Jun,

the real problem is really the sale of a collected tree. If there is no market, then there would be no free food for the taking.

On our side we have squatters [ folk who sit on state lands ] and all they do is step into the forests or bush and harvest wild root crops, shoot the animals and then go after the shore fish. Until this source of food dries up, they need no jobs. They also tend to have 6 to 13 children.

Some go after the fish in the sea for aquariums and break up the reef as well. With bonsai becoming popular, the collected trees become free food.
But this has been going on historically forever.
Until.
Khaimraj

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:15 pm

Crush,

around 95% of my are are designed and cultivated by me. I dont like trees personally styled by others. but in some cases when I really like the tree I buy them mostly halfway in the design process. then I made the adjustment on the design for the trees remaining life.

regards,
jun

below are some new materials. in starting point...








ps
materials above were collected with permits...from local government and transported with papers from department of environment and natural resources.


Last edited by jun on Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  crush on Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:24 pm

jun wrote:Crush,

around 95% of my are are designed and cultivated by me. I dont like trees personally styled by others. but in some cases when I really like the tree I buy them mostly halfway in the design process. then I made the adjustment on the design for the trees remaining life.

regards,
jun

below are some new materials. in starting point...







Hi....Jun,

Thanks...and great materials your have there.

cheers,
crush

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:31 pm

crush,

good quality material is the foundation of a good bonsai. If your material form is not ok fromthe beginning, no matter what you do to the branches and foliage you likely wont get the right emotion for the composition. but if got the wrong design with the right material, you can redo the rest of the tree when you already got the experience and the keen eye for the design.

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:43 pm

jun wrote:Rob and Will,

I think all bonsai collected and owned by individual should have some sort of certificate or be registered in an agency of a particular country. like that of a registered dog or other exotic pet. and this certificate of registration should be shown during bonsai shows.
For how long are we going to have discussions like this without any concrete solutions being implemented? There are very few people who are responsible enough to know what is right, the rest are just soooo dumb to understand the impact of what they are doing.

regards,
jun
Sad

Jun. I think a registration plan would be next to impossible to impliment and open to corruption. I think the majority of people involved in bonsai understand the ethics surrounding collecting and education is the key. Illegal collecting will never stop, even with heavy fines or prison terms.I fully understand the buzz and exitement involved with finding yamadori and know of some excellent sites but we have a responsibility to manage ourseves and our actions.

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:57 pm

Will,
educating people will take decades to have an effect, by the time all bonsai enthusiast are educated there will be no more exotic trees to apply what the education taught.

I go for the imprisonment and huge fine...radical problem needs radical solution.

regards,
jun Evil or Very Mad

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:02 pm

jun wrote:Will,
educating people will take decades to have an effect, by the time all bonsai enthusiast are educated there will be no more exotic trees to apply what the education taught.

I go for the imprisonment and huge fine...radical problem needs radical solution.

regards,
jun Evil or Very Mad


Totally agree Jun and those sanctions are already in place. Many collecting sites are extremely remote and extremely difficult to police and the collecting goes on...

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:08 pm

education for the end user and punishment for the producer. hand in hand I think it will work......someday.

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:14 pm

Well Jun there is your problem, trees renew at a given rate, and I am not sure how many Bonsai trees are commercially of any use. To the average person, this is a storm in a teacup. Plus, in order for many of those trees to be of any use they have to be contorted and the trunks have a limit or say 12 to 15 inches in diameter.

It is only when the removal causes negative effects, such as assisting coastal erosion. Then a fuss will be made. Normally a contorted tree on our side will be one of the first to die. So the collector is doing the plant a big favour.

As Will says, and we carry most of the Old English laws, sanctions are already there.
Que Vinci ?
Khaimraj





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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Rob Kempinski on Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:24 pm

jun wrote:Will,
educating people will take decades to have an effect, by the time all bonsai enthusiast are educated there will be no more exotic trees to apply what the education taught.

I go for the imprisonment and huge fine...radical problem needs radical solution.

regards,
jun Evil or Very Mad
A registration program would indeed be difficult. It might not be a bad idea for the person showing the tree to state its provenance at a show. Of course they could always lie but at least it starts to raise the level of awareness and that is the first step.

I don't believe collecting trees is bad as long as it is done responsibly and with proper legal authority.

In the USA there are already laws against taking stuff that doesn't belong to you (i.e stealing) including trees. I know of quite a few bonsai artists that have been detained, arrested and or fined for illegally taking trees that belonged to someone else, including several famous artists who I won't mention.

Stiff fines and jail time deter collecting trees in Taiwan and Japan and as a result a whole market has been created to develop seeds and nursery stock into good bonsai material. Consider most Taiwan junipers are nursery grown.

Human nature being what it is, there will always be thievery. Maybe we can start a new trend, when someone posts a tree on this forum they can say where it came from - such as "Collected with permission from a farm", "grown from a cutting", or "developed from seed", or "Imported from Japan", or "collected from a neighbor's yard with permission", or "Stolen from government land." It might be interesting to see the source of these trees. If we make it a practice to discuss the source it might start the right atmosphere.

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Re: pemphis acidula

Post  Guest on Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:11 am

I feel that exhibitions and demonstrations are important factors, when it comes to yamadori. There are many legitimate sources of good quality trees out there but the quest for better and better trees, costing more and more money, helps drive this black market. Demos and workshops have in recent years, given us instant bonsai of remarkable quality. For those with a big enough purse, an instant bonsai collection. When I started looking for more from my material and in particular native wild trees, the top end was £500.00- £1000.00. This is now small potatoes. Even if the fines are high, get away with it enough times, and your on to a winner. Who says crime doesn't pay?

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Re: pemphis acidula

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