yamadori

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Re: yamadori

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:59 am

Jose Luis and Alain,

I sincerely hope that you both realize I meant no disrespect. Your discussion (well, more like disagreement) has been extremely interesting and educational, at least for me. You guys obviously don't see it the same way, and that's OK. You've both shared information that we would have never known otherwise, and I appreciate you both taking the time to do that.

R

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Re: yamadori

Post  Alain Bertrand on Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:38 am

Jose Luis,

I am sorry if you felt offended, I have softened a little my last post. At the same time, I can not help but think that the supposed "lack of elegance" of my penmanship is just the usual way to steer the discussion away from the content to the form because one has not argumentation to oppose. Yes, we diseagree so what matter is the quality of the argumentation so that other people can make their own opinion based on facts.

I missed one of your points yesterday, so I come back to it :
You wrote :
1) 舍 (Shé): by itself, it has no profound meaning. It can either be a dwelling, a house, to reside; to live

2) 利 (lí): again, this ideogram alone offers little trascendental meaning. As is, it can mean the following: gains, advantage, profit, merit

(Combined)
3) 舍利 (shé-li): All of a sudden, it has a profound religious meaning. Now it means ashes after cremation/ buddhist relics.

and then concluded :

The aforementioned concepts are not meant to be studied individually. You cannot simply just figure them as individuals, just like single letters have no meaning. (athough some ideograms do mean something when alone)

Your conclusion is not valid because you just forgot the origin of the word shari which is sanskrit "sarira", so the characters have been choosen not because of their meaning but only because of their prounonciation. You just can't extend this particular case of characters being used only for their phonetical value to create a rule. "Yamadori" thus really means what its etymology means : "taken in the moutains". Period.

BTW、according to Kindai bonsai online dictionnary of technical term, shari is used in japanese because of the visual similitude with remains.

Best regards,


Last edited by Alain Bertrand on Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: yamadori

Post  my nellie on Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:01 am

Owing to the quotes down below....
Alain Bertrand wrote: ... ...
So what ? Have you considered the possibility of the word shari being used because of the visual similitude of the bone remains before concluding to any buddhist link ? Wink
... ...
I can't agree with this kind of reasoning as the following example will show. Skyscraper is written in japanese 摩天楼 (litterally : tower that scrapes the sky) with the same ten [tian] character that you use for establishing the buddist link of a "natural tree". So, with your reasoning, I could conclude that a skyscraper has a buddhist meaning in japanese, couldn't I ?

Anyway, the correct meaning of a technical word is not defined by an abstract reasoning but by its pratical use by specialist of the field. You can google this search (japanese definition of yamadori) an use a translator to (try to) get the (missing) buddhist link.
.... ....
I would like to present some thoughts of mine which (I'd like to believe) will be of some use...

Well, the Greek language is one of the two most ancient languages (the other being Latin).
If one would like to know the translation of the word "minister" to greek, searching into dictionaries will take the result "ypourgos".
So, calling "ypourgos" you mean "minister" and this is the technical term.
BUT, if you try to find the etymology or derivation of the word "ypourgos" you will find that it is a complex word comprising of the words "ypo" (an adverb which means: under) and the word "ergo" (a noun which means: task/mission/work...). The two of them together mean: "the man who holds a mission".
Can you see the difference?
And this is a slightest example. No need to mention philosophical terms! Shocked

Lastly, I do not expect non-Japanese to fully understand the Japanese terms, as well non-Greeks to fully understand Greek language.
Hence, we should always keep some "safety distance" from any translation, much more so if it is derived out of a Google pile....
And talking about net exploring, I say that you will take what you want to take.

Thank you for your time!

my nellie
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One more perspective... (hope not inflammatory)

Post  my nellie on Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:45 am

I read in another thread (from Jun about Pemphis) that workers' teams dig up on contract....
Most of us have watched relative videos on YouTube... and not only in Philippines but America and Europe as well.
Huge trees designated for sale!
So, my brainstorming issue is about the responsibility of the buyers.
Either they are well known bonsai artists, or wealthy individuals hiring the work of artists', or anyone else....
Are not they justly considered to be abettors in crime?

my nellie
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Re: yamadori

Post  Alain Bertrand on Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:42 pm

my nellie wrote:Owing to the quotes down below....

Well, the Greek language is one of the two most ancient languages (the other being Latin).
This is a european centric view.There are other languages that can be traced as far as Greek and Latin (Arabic, Chinese, and many more...) .

If one would like to know the translation of the word "minister" to greek, searching into dictionaries will take the result "ypourgos".
So, calling "ypourgos" you mean "minister" and this is the technical term.
BUT, if you try to find the etymology or derivation of the word "ypourgos" you will find that it is a complex word comprising of the words "ypo" (an adverb which means: under) and the word "ergo" (a noun which means: task/mission/work...). The two of them together mean: "the man who holds a mission".

I don't see your point. I don't know the various meanings of "ypourgos" if they are the same as in english "minister", the etymology would very clear about the various and somewhat polysemic meanings of today, because the common point to a minister in a goverment or a minister in a church is that both of them have a mission.


Lastly, I do not expect non-Japanese to fully understand the Japanese terms, as well non-Greeks to fully understand Greek language.
Hence, we should always keep some "safety distance" from any translation, much more so if it is derived out of a Google pile....
And talking about net exploring, I say that you will take what you want to take.
I used to live in Japan, I do speak fluently japanese and can it read well enough for bonsai articles. I have already talked about yamadori with 2 japanese bonsai masters who never bothered to talk about its supposed link with buddhism (both of them actually said that it was forbidden know in Japan with a tone of regret) nor I have read about its link in a japanese article, only in articles written by westerners with no first hand experience of Japan. As for the web references, it is just to allow anybody to verify by themselves that I am not mistaken.

I want to be clear : if some wants to link its own pratice of yamadori with buddhism, this is perfectly fine to me and I have not objection, but Jose Luis said much more : he said that "True yamadori has to have an inherent quality [...] linked to buddhism" and then this become a falsifiable affirmation like whether this is the sun that revolves around the earth or the contrary, and in this particular case, this is plain false: the vast majority of japanese bonsai people don't think so.

Best regards,


Alain Bertrand
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Re: yamadori

Post  my nellie on Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:23 pm

Dear Alain, written word falls sort of live speech Smile and much more than this English is a foreign language to me... Smile

What I was trying to say is that, bonsai (and consequently yamadori) for the Japanese (the past generations at least) has some kind of "philosophy" or "spirituality" or "metaphoric" meaning behind it... which is difficult for the western people to visualize... This is what I believe. I do not know if this has to do with Buddhism or Taohism or else.

Anyway, yamadori is a practice which I completely disagree with!
So, there is not a point for me to stick up for yamadori and the defenders of this practice Smile

I hope I've made myself clear! Very Happy

my nellie
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Re: yamadori

Post  Alain Bertrand on Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:50 pm

Hello Alexandra,

What I was trying to say is that, bonsai (and consequently yamadori) for the Japanese (the past generations at least) has some kind of "philosophy" or "spirituality" or "metaphoric" meaning behind it
Yes, this was perfectly clear and this was this very idea that I wanted to dismiss. This is a cliché !

Russell Coker (I think ) pretty much summarized it by citating its bonsai boss here saying "What is bonsai ? Bonsai is the toy of rich men" (tryed to find it on the forum search but couldn't. Hope I am not mistaken and that Russell will confirm.


Best regards,


Alain Bertrand
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Re: yamadori

Post  my nellie on Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:45 pm

Alain, it looks like I remain a nostalgic viewer of the past...

I must admit it, things have already surpassed a romantic novice like me Laughing
And some recent threads about "pots" in IBC do confirm this!

my nellie
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Re: yamadori

Post  jrodriguez on Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:26 pm

Alain,

I am tired of this discussion. Perhaps, i failed to include Sanskrit as part of my essay, or perhaps I didn't. I won't bite. Discussing this term will lead another thread of philosophical and perhaps religious content that might lead to a never ending argument. I see that philosophical links to bonsai bother you, plus I choose to invest my time elsewhere. Like I said, I thank you for offering me a window of education and research. Please respect my decision.

Cordially,

Jose Luis

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Re: yamadori

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:04 pm

Alain Bertrand wrote:Russell Coker (I think ) pretty much summarized it by citating its bonsai boss here saying "What is bonsai ? Bonsai is the toy of rich men" (tryed to find it on the forum search but couldn't. Hope I am not mistaken and that Russell will confirm.

Yes, Alain, that was I. Actually, it's a quote by my bonsai teacher (NOT a rich man) about our boss and his friends (RICH men) who bought and sold masterpieces. Our boss owned, and was president of, Gekkan Satsuki Kenkyusha and the Kanuma Shizen Bonsai Koen. He co-authored "Bonsai Techniques for Satsuki" with John Naka and Richard Ota, but he's really responsible for the contents of that book. He was also one of the men who really brought satsuki to the forefront of bonsai in Japan in the '80's.

R

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Re: yamadori

Post  JimLewis on Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:25 pm

Russell Coker wrote:Jose Luis and Alain,

I sincerely hope that you both realize I meant no disrespect. Your discussion (well, more like disagreement) has been extremely interesting and educational, at least for me. You guys obviously don't see it the same way, and that's OK. You've both shared information that we would have never known otherwise, and I appreciate you both taking the time to do that.

R

Where is Peter Aradi when we need him? This is HIS area of expertise. I THINK he'd come down on the side that there is no known historic Zen Buddhism connection to bonsai -- despite a lot of after-the-fact attempts by some to create one.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: yamadori

Post  jrodriguez on Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:44 pm

Mr. Jim Lewis,

First of all, although I do not follow the same lines that Alain has portrayed, his answers show a great deal of commitment and knowledge on the Japanese language and its practical meaning. This is sustained very well in his responses.

Cordially,

Jose Luis


Last edited by jrodriguez on Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: yamadori

Post  JimLewis on Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:31 pm

Well, shame on ME! Though, I don't see what that has to do with the price of eggs. I was merely mentioning thoughts passed on to me the last time this topic came up on the IBC by a person whose opinion I respect and who has studied in Japan for many years. And wishing he was here to discuss this today.

(And, I lived in Japan for several years. I never learned to decipher any but the simplest kanji, but I managed to make my way through the spoken language well enough after I graduated high school there to take college-entry level German and Algebra classes over there taught in Japanese. That was more than 50 years ago, however. And we won't diuscuss my grades in German.)

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: yamadori

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