yamadori

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yamadori

Post  kingbean on Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:28 pm

when is the best time for collecting trees from the wild ? and is it legal to collect from the wild ?

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Re: yamadori

Post  fiona on Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:25 pm

Kingbean, I must advise you that you are straying into very dangerous territory here. It was right of you to ask before you went off and dug, but the forum must be wary of being seen to condone activities which are illegal in some circumstances and unethical in so many more.

As a member of the IBC "management" I am not going to give you any advice other than to suggest that you think long and hard about whether you want to go down this route or not. There are good alternatives, such as sourcing material from your own, or friends', relatives' and neighbours' gardens. If you do decide you wish to collect, then it is imperative that you make yourself familiar with what plants are protected in the UK (or wherever you go collecting). Plants are protected for several reasons: for example they may be rare, or they may be of significant importance to the eco-system in which they exist. I'm sure you can see from that why we cannot condone people digging them up in the name of bonsai. Similarly, even if the trees you have your sights on are not classified as protected, you must ensure that you have the full permission of the landowner before you undertake any collecting.

Failure to do either of these could easily result in your being prosecuted and I'm sure you don't want that.

I thought about removing this thread but I as I have already said, I am pleased that you saw fit to ask first and that alone deserves a response. Please do bear in mind the points I have raised before making your decision as to whether you will go ahead or not.

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Re: yamadori

Post  kingbean on Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:49 pm

thank you fiona i do understand the points you have made and am grateful for your reply

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Re: yamadori

Post  Russell Coker on Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:10 am

I'm really glad you didn't remove this thread. The question is a legitimate one, and your reply was WONDERFUL!
So many new people come to this club and see the amazing material being collected and shown here, I can only imagine what they must think. Heck, I've been at this a long time and the material blows my mind!

Every jurisdiction is going to have their own rules, so everyone must do their own homework first. Asking forgiveness instead of permission may work sometimes, but I bet it's hard to do from jail. And don't forget about areas that are scheduled for development or logging. Many fine wild plants, not just for bonsai, can be saved if you can get in ahead of the bulldozers. Ask permission and get permits in writing - think CYA.

Russell

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Re: yamadori

Post  kingbean on Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:31 pm

many thanks russell

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Yamadori

Post  bonsaisr on Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:47 pm

For newcomers on other continents: Fiona's assessment is correct for old, densely populated countries like UK and Japan, where all the yamadori are just about gone. It is quite a different story in some parts of North America, western South America, eastern Europe, & some tropical countries. There are some trees, like American larch, that are very plentiful. In fact, just about every larch bonsai you see in this country is collected. There is also an opposite aspect. Many trees that are suitable bonsai subjects are naturalized in foreign countries and are actually invasive weeds. This includes Scots pine here in the Northeast, & countless species in Florida. The basic rules are the same all over, never dig up a protected species and get permission from the landowner. In Florida, they will be delighted to have you collect a Casuarina.
Iris

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Re: yamadori

Post  fiona on Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:43 pm

bonsaisr wrote: ...are actually invasive weeds. This includes Scots pine here in the Northeast...
but if you try to collect one in the Caledonian Pine forests in the north of Scotland, be prepared to find a landowner with a shotgun breathing down your neck - even if they are one of the native British conifers, in certain areas with regeneration policies, they are heavily protected.

Maybe we need to put this topic to bed now as the advice is going to be the same from everyone - check what is protected and where, then get permissions before you even set foot on the land with a spade.

Kingbean, one last point: remember that your bonsai "eye" will change as you get better and more knowledgeable. There's a temptation to dig up everything you see that "might" make a good bonsai some day. Be sensible and selective. Your original question suggests you are a sensible fella and can be relied on to respect our natural environment accordingly.

People you might like to consult/research:

Forestry Commission
The Woodland Trust
NCCPG
English Heritage (or the appropriate one for the area you're going to)
Local Authorities (especially their Local Biodiversity Action Plans)
British Waterways

and a whole host of others


Last edited by fiona on Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: yamadori

Post  JimLewis on Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:04 pm

In Florida, they will be delighted to have you collect a Casuarina.

But you still can't just go out and dig. Someone needs to give you permission.

AND, it isn't as good hunting in North America as Iris suggests. One third of this continent is considered to be arid land, with very low to almost no rainfall over a year. And it isn't getting any better as the years get hotter.

In arid lands, every bit of greenery -- especially native greenery -- is important, and is not easily replaced once dug up. Every one who travels to Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming and the other rocky mountain states in the American west can and does bring back photos of glorious "bonsai" growing in the deserts.



But if you dig this one, it might be 50 years before another Manzanita seed managed to sprout here, and 100 years before some other plant hunter stumbled across the site and ripped the "new" one out.

Both the Pinon pine (Pinus edulis) [back] and the one-seed juniper (Juniperus monosperma) [front] are fairly common at low elevations in the Southwest, but it takes hundreds of years to develop specimens like these. It is, I think, the ultimate in hubris to think we can simply go out there are dig these up for our private pleasure. (These both are on Bureau of Land Management land in New Mexico, though it was quite a hike in to find them.



If they were to be dug up, they would likely never be replaced. The climate is changing. The old trees can survive -- their roots have dug through sandstone and caliche to find water -- but their reproduction rates seem very low. You see very few seedlings.

You may not need permission to dig a Tamarisk from a dry waterway in the arid west. They are part of the reason that waterway is dry. But someone owns the land. You need to check with them to get permission to go on it.

Larch in the great, cold north may be common as dirt, but you still leave a hole behind. Someone else passing by won't enjoy seeing the little tree you now possess. But you can start looking for them farther north as years go one, and fewer and fewer of them to today's southern range limits.

In Florida -- especially in the Everglades -- I'm sure you can get permission to dig Mellaleucca, Brazilian pepper, and Chinese tallow (But keep an eye out for Alligators and escaped Burmese pythons). These trees are invasive in the worse sense of the word. But then, it is unlawful to transport them on the roadways in Florida so there might be a small problem. Smile (Maybe you could tell the Agricultural Inspector you're taking them out of state.)

I'm no great fan of collecting from the wild areas, but I suspect you figured that out. There's too damned many of us and too little truly wild land left; no need for any of us to go there to make it less wild. And we have NO business going there to dig trees up to sell them. I've seen wild orchids, bromiliads, colorful tree snails all vanish from south Florida because of collectors. I've seen a mountain park here in NC be vandalized by (I think) a bonsai collector who left behind empty holes in the rock -- along with a few dead trees whose roots just went too far into the rock to get free, and a good deal of shattered rock fragments scattered on the mountainside.

I am a fan of urban collecting; of digging trees from landscape makeovers, from under the bulldozer's blade, the woodsman's axe, or the miner's drill. Again, though, get permission.

Ma Nature has a great deal of bonsai talent. "Dig" her bonsai with your camera, then buy a nursery plant and recreate them.

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Re: yamadori

Post  Russell Coker on Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:08 pm

bonsaisr wrote:In Florida, they will be delighted to have you collect a Casuarina.

If you want a Casuarina in Florida, it's about the ONLY way you're going to get it! That is unless you're one of those people who likes to grow things from cuttings, and I'm not one. And speaking of growing things for bonsai, I think we were all stunned to learn from Jose Luis that those beautiful pine and juniper bonsai he shows us from Taiwan are from nursery grown material because it is ILLEGAL to collect trees from the mountains there. Heck, when I was a teenager living in Florida our bonsai club would get permission and permits if necessary and we'd go collecting together. They're some of my fondest memories of my "other mothers and fathers".

I'm sure that for every one of those masterpiece bonsai created from collected material in Japan (and everywhere else too) there is a huge pile of carcasses that didn't make it. No wonder so many of their mountains have been stripped. When I was there some of the guys that worked with us were plant people, but NOT bonsai people. They were the ones that translated "yamadori" for me: "yama" of course for mountain, and "dori" from "dorobo" which means a THIEF!!! Interesting perspective.

I still don't know why you're in such a hurry to shut this thread down, Fiona. The points are well made, and our new-to-bonsai folks need to be aware of the ramifications of collecting. I'll shut up now.

R

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Re: yamadori

Post  Mike Jones on Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:44 am

I cannot comment on other countries but for Gt Britain I personally have never removed a tree from the wild that was not otherwise destined for the bonfire or the chipper. I collected several substantial sized oak trees from North Wales that were being ripped out to make way for a road. A friend called me and asked if I would like them.

Other trees such as pines and hawthorns, privets etc have always without exception come from an area that builders were carrying out ground clearance on. And I have had some pretty fine Yamadori this way. I have never felt so inclined as to collect in other ways. If I did, and it is a big if...I would seek appropriate permissions from all concerned and ensure once the tree had been removed, I would leave the area very tidy and plant TWO further saplings in place of the one that I had removed. If it was to be three removals then I would plant six and so on. I would just consider this to be right and proper for the environment and the future.

It is not difficult to establish a relationship with ground clearance contractors, builders, and in particular quarries. I have collected several fine Pines and junipers from quarries and they have the kit to get a substantial root ball.

Mike


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Re: yamadori

Post  Alain Bertrand on Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:19 am

They were the ones that translated "yamadori" for me: "yama" of course for mountain, and "dori" from "dorobo" which means a THIEF!!! Interesting perspective.
That is a pleasant but incorrect etymology. "Dori" comes simply from "toru", take. It seems that "dorobo" also may come from toru (japanese etymology site) but there are so many compound words with "tori" without the slightest meaning of stealing that you can't draw any conclusion from that.

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Re: yamadori

Post  Russell Coker on Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:50 pm

Alain Bertrand wrote:
They were the ones that translated "yamadori" for me: "yama" of course for mountain, and "dori" from "dorobo" which means a THIEF!!! Interesting perspective.
That is a pleasant but incorrect etymology. "Dori" comes simply from "toru", take. It seems that "dorobo" also may come from toru (japanese etymology site) but there are so many compound words with "tori" without the slightest meaning of stealing that you can't draw any conclusion from that.

Thanks for the clarification Alain. That makes a lot more sense. Remember that was 25 years ago, and haven't used it much since then. I remember that their explanation was to take or to steal. I must have made the dorobo thief connection on my own because they considered this bonsai material (or orchids, etc) as STOLEN from nature, and viewed it and the people who do the collecting in a very negative light.

Thanks for shining a light into a dusty part of my brain!

R

p.s. thanks for that sight too!!


Last edited by Russell Coker on Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : p.s.)

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Re: yamadori

Post  fiona on Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:47 pm

Russell Coker wrote: I still don't know why you're in such a hurry to shut this thread down, Fiona. The points are well made, and our new-to-bonsai folks need to be aware of the ramifications of collecting.
I'm not - as is evidenced by the simple fact that it is still here. I did say that I'd thought about it. But it was little other than a fleeting thought based on a discussion among the Mods re the need for the IBC to be seen to take an ethical approach to the whole very thorny issue balanced with the fact that IBC members do take the "good guy" approach to collecting.

And that has been borne out by, as you rightly point out, the sensible, ethical and positive reponses that are coming through.

I'm more than happy to let this continue on that basis.



And thanks that nobody pointed out the vary glaring spelling error in my last post - now corrected so you can't see my shame in its full horror! Embarassed

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Re: yamadori

Post  jrodriguez on Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:06 pm

Russel,

Bonsai is a race against time. I agree that stealingtrees from nature is wrong. Nevertheless, I have seen perfectly healthy trees in that same wild habitat, only to see them a few months later succumbed to the elements. Sometimes i wonder if they would still be alive if someone had dug them. I guess i'll never know.

I have been a witness to indiscriminate 'hunting" Hai Furong (Pemphis Acidula) in southeast Asia. Even in Puerto Rico, I have seen the same happen with Suriana Maritima (similar to pemphis). Sometimes they go crazy for hunting the species just for the species. No attention is made to the actual quality and characteristics of the tree.

Yamadori is a term that has been subject of wrong interpretation. Not every tree collected form the mountains is a Yamadori. True yamadori has to have an inherent quality which shows the relics of time, antiquity and unyielding survival to the elements. It is closely linked to concepts of Budhism. Sometimes I feel thet the word has been treated like a prostitute (妓女) and used to identify any plant that has been uprooted. This view of the tradition behind yamadori is totally wrong and has led to the unselective destruction of many habitats.

To some extent, the same can be said about some trees allocated in urban areas. Even though they were not mountain grown (山区种植), some have a inherent quality that gives you the same feeling as if it were a Yamadori. We always refer to these as (山区质量) Shan Qu zhí liang, or mountain quality; not true Yamadori.

Understanding the concept (not the word) is an ongoing process. The only thing that i can tell you is that a true yamadori 'speaks to you'. It gives you a certain feeling, similar to the feeling you have when viewing a Chinese antique pot.

I apologize for my choice of words. I have tried to explain this in the most precise way possible.

Kind regards,

Jose Luis



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Re: yamadori

Post  Hans van Meer. on Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:12 pm

Hi Fiona, I hope you dont mind me saying, but there were a lot of spelling errors in your previous post!

Always here to help you out!!!
Your friend,
Hans van Meer.

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Re: yamadori

Post  Kalogero on Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:15 pm

Hi,
In France, law is very strict for collected trees : it's illegal unless you have a permission to dig one. And it's pretty difficult to have a permission. In France, yamadori is a big debate : against or not ! those which are against have very good arguments and those which are for too. In the end, the only good argument, no matter if you're for or against, is the respect of nature. When someone takes a tree, he must do it with authorization, and after collecting, to fill the hole and makes so that the passage of man is invisible.
For me, Yamadori is an indissociable practice of bonsai. It is that you have to do it with respect within the framework defines by the law.

I 've already collected some trees, but only in some friend's gardens and with species I know well to be sure of their health.

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Re: yamadori

Post  Russell Coker on Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:37 pm

jrodriguez wrote:I apologize for my choice of words. I have tried to explain this in the most precise way possible.

I think you've explained it beautifully, as you always do!

R

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Re: yamadori

Post  fiona on Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:13 pm

Russell Coker wrote:
jrodriguez wrote:I apologize for my choice of words. I have tried to explain this in the most precise way possible.

I think you've explained it beautifully, as you always do! R
I agree wholeheartedly.

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Re: yamadori

Post  Mike Jones on Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:24 pm

fiona wrote:
Russell Coker wrote: I still don't know why you're in such a hurry to shut this thread down, Fiona. The points are well made, and our new-to-bonsai folks need to be aware of the ramifications of collecting.
I'm not - as is evidenced by the simple fact that it is still here. I did say that I'd thought about it. But it was little other than a fleeting thought based on a discussion among the Mods re the need for the IBC to be seen to take an ethical approach to the whole very thorny issue balanced with the fact that IBC members do take the "good guy" approach to collecting.

And that has been borne out by, as you rightly point out, the sensible, ethical and positive reponses that are coming through.

I'm more than happy to let this continue on that basis.





And thanks that nobody pointed out the vary glaring spelling error in my last post - now corrected so you can't see my shame in its full horror! Embarassed


I wouldn't have dared to Fiona lol! Even the 'reponses' makes some sense ThumbsUp

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Re: yamadori

Post  Alain Bertrand on Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:01 pm

Yamadori is a term that has been subject of wrong interpretation. Not every tree collected form the mountains is a Yamadori. True yamadori has to have an inherent quality which shows the relics of time, antiquity and unyielding survival to the elements. It is closely linked to concepts of Budhism. Sometimes I feel thet the word has been treated like a prostitute (妓女) and used to identify any plant that has been uprooted. This view of the tradition behind yamadori is totally wrong and has led to the unselective destruction of many habitats.

This is a myth. There is no connection whatsoever between buddhism and yamadori. The "spiritualisation" of Japanese things often sounds nice to westerners because of its exotic/strange/whatever taste, and sometimes it goes back to Japan and get accepted there because it gives Japanese people a image of themselves that pleases them. This has been demonstrated by quite a few research studies.

Yamadori is written 山 (moutain) and 取り (any sens of take) or 穫り (take in the more specialized meaning of harvest) and means "taken in the mountain". Period.

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Re: yamadori

Post  jrodriguez on Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:54 pm

Alain Bertrand,

我只是提出我的观点,因为我的老师提供给我。我没有不尊重。我的观点是建立在旧中国的传统。中国书法与佛教作为对我的盆景研究奠定了基础。
(I only offer my point of view, as offered to me by my teacher. I mean no disrespect. My view is founded in old chinese tradition. Chinese Calligraphy and Buddhism serve as a foundation to my bonsai studies.)

Also, the concept of yamadori, is closely related to the concept of jin and shari, which does have a profound meaning in Buddhism. I only try to share whatever little knowledge i find inportant and relevant. If you are into chinese calligraphy, you might want to find out what these two ideograms are : 舍利 (shé-li)

As i am not versed in japanese, i can only offer to you my appreciation from a Chinese/Taiwanese/Latinamerican view. Returning once again to the aforementioned ideograms and their relationship with yamadori and jin and shari, i offer an analysis on both of them:

1) 舍 (Shé): by itself, it has no profound meaning. It can either be a dwelling, a house, to reside; to live

2) 利 (lí): again, this ideogram alone offers little trascendental meaning. As is, it can mean the following: gains, advantage, profit, merit

(Combined)
3) 舍利 (shé-li): All of a sudden, it has a profound religious meaning. Now it means ashes after cremation/ buddhist relics.

The aforementioned concepts are not meant to be studied individually. You cannot simply just figure them as individuals, just like single letters have no meaning. (athough some ideograms do mean something when alone) Now, let's go back to the ideograms you posted.

1) 山 (shan): mountain, hill, anything that resembles a mountain, a womans breast, a bundle of straw

2)り: no meaning in chinese

3)穫り when combined 获 (huó): to reach, to capture

***By the way, mountain harvest is : 山收获*** (shan shou huó), also with multiple meanings.

In the literal sense mountain capture/mountain reach. Does this make sense? maybe a little bit.

I have to thank you. you have offered me an opportunity to study my calligraphy. I guess that my suggestion for a natural tree might now be:

天然树 (Tian ran Shú), meaning

natural tree or, considering the hidden meaning behind the ideograms:

1) 天 (tian): heaven, god, celestial, sky

2) 然 (ran): celestial, promise, pledge

3) 树 (shú): tree

So even though it might mean natural tree, the Buddhist meaning behind it might be considered as the heavenly tree or perhaps a tree of celestial promise...

Again, thank you for offering me a window into finding more meaning to the concept of yamadori.

Kind regards,

Jose Luis (荷西)


失败就是机会!!! With failure comes opportunity...佛陀 (Buddha)



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Re: yamadori

Post  Alain Bertrand on Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:01 pm

1) 舍 (Shé): by itself, it has no profound meaning. It can either be a dwelling, a house, to reside; to live

2) 利 (lí): again, this ideogram alone offers little trascendental meaning. As is, it can mean the following: gains, advantage, profit, merit

(Combined)
3) 舍利 (shé-li): All of a sudden, it has a profound religious meaning. Now it means ashes after cremation/ buddhist relics.

The aforementioned concepts are not meant to be studied individually. You cannot simply just figure them as individuals, just like single letters have no meaning. (athough some ideograms do mean something when alone)

So what ? Have you considered the possibility of the word shari being used because of the visual similitude of the bone remains before concluding to any buddhist link ? Wink

3)穫り when combined 获 (huó): to reach, to capture
BTW, I am pretty sure that I did read 穫り somewhere but an internet search shows that 採り is much more used. I stand corrected.

1) 天 (tian): heaven, god, celestial, sky

2) 然 (ran): celestial, promise, pledge

3) 树 (shú): tree

So even though it might mean natural tree, the Buddhist meaning behind it might be considered as the heavenly tree or perhaps a tree of celestial promise...
I can't agree with this kind of reasoning as the following example will show. Skyscraper is written in japanese 摩天楼 (litterally : tower that scrapes the sky) with the same ten [tian] character that you use for establishing the buddist link of a "natural tree". So, with your reasoning, I could conclude that a skyscraper has a buddhist meaning in japanese, couldn't I ?

Anyway, the correct meaning of a technical word is not defined by an abstract reasoning but by its pratical use by specialist of the field. You can google this search (japanese definition of yamadori) an use a translator to (try to) get the (missing) buddhist link. Another interesting piece of information is the online article "Story of the japanse juniper" translated from kinbon. It deals a lot with yamadori and its excesses and by the way illustrates well the absolute lack of spiritual meaning of "yamadori".

Best Regards,



Last edited by Alain Bertrand on Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: yamadori

Post  jrodriguez on Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:06 am

Alain,

My original post was clearly meant to offer another standpoint on yamadori. If you disagree with my appreciation, that's ok. My replies have always been permeated with respect and consideration. On the other hand, your penmanship denotes the lack of elegance that is prevalent in mature discussions and with most of the members that contribute time and effort here.

To answer your question, yes, relics or bones are also within the scope of meaning of shari.

Kind regards,

Jose Luis







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Re: yamadori

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:32 am

kingbean wrote:when is the best time for collecting trees from the wild ? and is it legal to collect from the wild ?

Ah, to think this all started with 2 simple questions!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the education guys, don't feel like you have to stop. Interesting to peek inside your brains!

R

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Re: yamadori

Post  jrodriguez on Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:46 am

Russel,

Considering the language difference (Chinese v. Japanese), it is not worth the effort; a Pyrrhic victory in which i do not want to engage.

I have always made it clear that i agree to disagree.

Kind regards,
Jose Luis

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Re: yamadori

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