New Shohin JBP

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New Shohin JBP

Post  p nutties on Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:08 am

Hello everyone, this is my first post so please be easy on me. I bought this tree yesterday at Bill Valavaniss' open house, he was reluctant to give it up but he was kind enough to part with it. I have cleaned up the needles and cut off a few candles where 3 or 4 were growing from 1 spot. The tree already looks nice to me, idea's on updating the shape? Keeping it small and compact is my goal for sure. I am about 4 years into my bonsai interest, this tree is already one of my personal favorites. The first picture is what I am thinking of for the front. Thanks for your thoughts!







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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  kevin stoeveken on Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:05 pm

just curious as to why he was reluctant to part with it ?

even though this is your first post, you say you have been interested in this for about 4 years so i am sure you are aware of the extreme reverse taper that this tree exhibits... especially when viewed from your chosen front.

any design considerations should make an effort to conceal that
(along with what appears from some angles as an extremely straight section of trunk in the upper part of the tree)

i hope that was "easy on you" enough Wink

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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  MrFancyPlants on Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:27 pm

While I understand where Kevin is coming from, I believe this tree has a lot of potential. Reverse taper is a major flaw that for many trees is a kiss of death design wise, but when you have suitable movement and rootage (which I believe this one has). Reverse taper can be overcome utilizing sacrifice growth to induce taper and/or by carving. The first thing to realize is that the straight section after the twist will eventually have to go, and I am not sure if it has a role to play with sacrifice growth.. but probably not much. The straight section just doesn't work with the nice movement in the base. You could maybe put some movement into the straight section, but I think removing(not necessarily right away, as you want to have lots of energy to start the next phase of the design) and carving to induce more taper is the way forward. I think also repotting in a colander or pond basket could help generate more energy while developing the neberi.

Maybe Kevin is right and the tree is hopeless, but I don't think so. At a minimum, it is an opportunity to try out some advanced techniques, and who knows where the tree will lead you.
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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  kevin stoeveken on Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:02 pm

easy there mr. pancy flants !!! Razz
i never said hopeless Evil or Very Mad
just flawed... Wink

and like you said, those flaws could be overcome with time using some of the techniques you mentioned or perhaps concealed.

curious what the OP thinks about these thought scratch

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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  AlainK on Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:32 pm

Hi everyone,

kevin stoeveken wrote:
(...) I am sure you are aware of the extreme reverse taper that this tree exhibits... especially when viewed from your chosen front.
Any design considerations should make an effort to conceal that (...)

I'm afraid that what Kevin said was just what I refrained from posting in the past few days...

It's still can be done, but I also think this is a major flaw that has to be addressed.

"Scaryfying" the narrowest part of the trunk so that the scars bulge enough to hide it?...
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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  AlainK on Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:49 pm

Anyway, to me the top part should be either wired or cut off.

I'd cut it off (red line = 0).

Then, there's a branch that could become a new leader if wired accordingly = 5

Branches 1,2,3 & 4 could remain for the moment whatever option you choose, but if it were mine, I'd get rid of the rigid umbrella (branch = 0) above the twisted base...

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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  kevin stoeveken on Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:53 pm

an amendment to the above suggestion,,,
consider NOT cutting at the red line, but rather removing all foliage above that point and creating an interesting jin with that section,...
if you do not like it, then you can always go back and remove it...

and i just love carrying on these conversations when the original poster is not even participating... Rolling Eyes

yawn

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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  MrFancyPlants on Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:18 pm

kevin stoeveken wrote:easy there mr. pancy flants !!! Razz
i never said hopeless Evil or Very Mad
just flawed... Wink

You're right, upon rereading, you didn't and even offered direction toward concealment. Sorry for putting a word in your mouth.
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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  kevin stoeveken on Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:20 pm

sheeee-it man - no worries !!! Razz

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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  LanceMac10 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:24 pm

If the OP comes back around, I think I see some good potential here. A long project, (as are most).......anywho.....I'll keep an eye out.

WHERE ARE YOU p nutties? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  p nutties on Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:51 am

Hi everyone, so glad to see your posts and thoughts. I may try to bend the straight section if it doesn't go well I like the idea of creating some deadwood from the section above the red line. I want to keep it small so this may shrink the tree by 1/2 the size right off the bat. I feel the tree had a good look before any styling and really liked the twisted knotty area. I just took my first class with Bill over the weekend, lots of trunk bending so hopefully, this goes well. The reverse taper to me works somewhat as the twisted area looks as if the knot is wrapped around the base of the trunk.
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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  kevin stoeveken on Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:58 pm

p nutties wrote:The reverse taper to me works somewhat as the twisted area looks as if the knot is wrapped around the base of the trunk.

as long as you can live with it, then thats all that counts...

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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  augustine on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:02 pm

Hi P Nutties,

I like your pine bonsai and it's from one of the true American bonsai masters, Mr. Valavanis. The reverse taper is simply what happens when they create these twisted shohin black pine bonsai. The trunks are wired and twisted. Your tree just needs some more refinement.

At this point I would leave it be, place in full sun and give the last feeding or two. Then take some time to figure out how to take care of it and manage the foliage next year. (You will keep this compact by cutting the summer shoots which will also create additional ramification.)

The only feature I would address is the top section that is straight. I'd try to wire for movement. But it should not be done til next fall (I prune and wire mine around mid November to mid December here but your climate is colder and maybe you should do the work a little earlier. Check with a local bonsai practitioner.)

Also in reference to the top section, it will need further ramification but again I would try to get some movement. I would NOT create jin, IMO that's not appropriate for this tree (that's the type of thing you do for a juniper).

In the meantime enjoy! I'd be happy to have the tree. Join a club if possible where you can get opinions and help.

Regards,


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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  p nutties on Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:02 pm

Would you suggest cutting the candles down being its so late in the season?
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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  augustine on Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:09 pm

No leave it be. Study up on foliage management for next season

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Re: New Shohin JBP

Post  augustine on Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:13 pm

But you should wire that apex, around mid October.

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Re: New Shohin JBP

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