tsuga canadensis

View previous topic View next topic Go down

tsuga canadensis

Post  MrFancyPlants on Mon May 26, 2014 2:25 am

I collected this last year around this time.  I hear the roots can be tricky, so I am trying to take it real slow, because I enjoy how this tree breaks 3 at least major rules. I believe I will keep the crossing branch

I did remove perhaps 15% of the photosynthetic area when I removed a few redundant branches this spring.  I wanted to make sure that light was getting all the way to those inner buds.  There is still not enough room for a bird to fly through and eat those derned spider mites though.

I may have overpotted last year, but I needed something big for the wagon wheel of roots that I collected.  I used a fair amount of pumice and about 12 other ingredients, the most rebellious being a small hunk of local clay placed on top to slowly melt. I was rewarded with a weeping 4-5 cm growth this spring on the strong buds.  The five year plan is roots, roots roots. My fantasy is to remove one of the 5 wagon wheel spokes each spring for the next five years, but who knows what I'll find at my next repotting.












MrFancyPlants
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  MrFancyPlants on Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:35 am

I am quite pleased with the natural growth habit of tsuga canadensis. I am thinking that my final design will involve little to no wire.  I am wondering what pot to put it in next spring.  The current pot is too tall and at worst, might be showing out the lower branches slightly.  I would think the middle third of this pot would be about the right dimensions for it's future training pot.  
   On the next repotting, I plan on using lots of pumice, hard akadama (that is what the label on what I have says), spaghnum, and some fresh vermi-compost. It seems tone enjoying a fair amount of sun despite most literature hinting at a shadier environment.  Nick Lentz' book did say the drawback to full sun was the foliage "pulling up", but I am pretty happy with the cascading of the foliage so far even though it is in a pretty sunny spot.


Last edited by MrFancyPlants on Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:36 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typu)

MrFancyPlants
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  Leo Schordje on Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:02 pm

Nice tree. I love the soft look of the foliage.

I would let the tree grow at least 2 or 3 seasons between repotting. I also would have used a lower, wider pot as the training pot. The pot it is currently in is fine if your final design is heading toward a tree 25% to 50% shorter than it currently is now, but if you were thinking of designs equal or larger than the current size, as a training pot the current pot is too small and too deep.

I like the look of hemlock foliage, your tree has potential. Nice find.
Leo

Leo Schordje
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  MrFancyPlants on Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:20 pm

Leo,
Thank you for the encouragement. Next spring would be two years since it's initial potting. As much as I would like to wait a third, I would also like to get it in a shallower and perhaps wider pot and as well as to start to address the roots.

I think the final design will be roughly the height that it is now. Many of the branches have the potential to take over as new leaders, if I were to chop it back, but I find the placement of just about all of them pleasing. Assuming I kept the silhouette roughly what it is now, with a little tightening up, what size and shape training and final pots would you recommend? I almost wish I could take the top off of the current pot for training just to give those lower branches some breathing room, but I would likely end up with a broken pot.

MrFancyPlants
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  MrFancyPlants on Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:23 am




This one sure  loves the fertilizer tablets  that I got at my local club meeting.   I got a large ziplock full of them for five bucks.  I believe they are meant for farming.  It is doing such a good job of filling out that I will plan in repotting next spring. I ha a nightmare that the only root that survived collection was the tap root.

MrFancyPlants
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  Leo Schordje on Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:45 pm

If the current size of your tree is pretty much the final size, I would go with a pot about 2 to 3 inches in depth, and an inch or two larger in diameter than the current pot. Your tree is young, really not 'ready' for a styling. So I would pick a round pot, unglazed, and a dark color, as your pot. I like clay called "Raven Clay" it is a naturally gray clay. Brown, especially dark brown and the purple brown called "Purple Clay" will work well. Yi Xing pottery is often "Purple Clay", though Yi Xing pottery can come in many colors.

By using a round pot, you can change your mind about where the front of the tree is, without having to repot it.

If it were my tree, and I were going to keep it the size it currently is, I would like the trunk to be thicker at the base, maybe twice the diameter your trunk currently is. Your trunk is pretty much the same diameter all the way up to where the top was chopped. If you keep the tree pruned to roughly the size it is now, the trunk will not thicken even if grown well for decades. No taper will develop. To thicken the trunk you need to get the tree growing. You will need to let branches escape, create sacrifice branches. I have a pomegranate that was pruned to shape and size for 40 years, without escape branches, it is only one inch in diameter. You can see photos in my gallery. Trust me, a tree that is kept bonsai size will not increase trunk diameter.

SO you need to pick one or two or three branches low in the tree, and let them grow and escape. Keep the rest of the branches pruned short, so you can keep foliage in close to the trunk. You want the escape branches to extend not just a foot or two, but let them extend out upwards 4 to 6 feet. If you want a fat 3 inch trunk, you will have to let it extend maybe 10 feet. Then, after the escape branches have done their job, they are 'sacrificed', cut off. Yvonne G has a nice thread going on sacrifice branches. Generally locate sacrifice branches on the rear and or the sides of a trunk, so that hiding the scar from removal will be easier. To thicken the trunk and create taper, use the lowest branch or the second lowest branch as your first sacrifice branch. Read the articles on Brent Walston's website about growing trunks. http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/ While hemlock has a different growth pattern than a pine, the concept of building trunks one segment at a time is sound. His article on building trunks for deciduous trees also gives insight. If you follow his lead, this tree could be really fine in less than 10 years. And it will still be the size it currently is, even though much of the time it will have had a few wildly long branches shooting off it.

If it were my tree I would plant it in a flat, maybe an Anderson tray, 15 x 15 x 4 inches deep, and then let the very first branch grow, and maybe the 4th branch, let them grow, keeping the others pruned fairly tight. It may take up to 5 years, maybe more, but when the trunk reaches a size you like, for me it would be over 2 inches in diameter, then I would cut the escape branches off. By this time the escapes could be upwards of 6 feet long. If you kept the foliage of the 'keeper' branches pruned tight, it will be like revealing and "instant bonsai", because the appearance change will be dramatic.

You have no real taper toward the apex. If you are not in a hurry, and want a better tree, I would consider cutting the top half of the tree off and re-grow it. If you like it's current height, cut it back at least 1/3 or more, select a branch to be the new leader, bend it up and then let it grow. On this new leader select a branch low on the new segment to be that segment's escape branch, this will thicken the base of the new leader to make a more natural transition from the thicker older trunk to the new segment. When the transition from one segment to the next looks natural, then it is time to cut off the sacrifice.

But if you like the diameter of your trunk as is, ignore the above. You have nice foliage and lots of branches to work with.

Leo Schordje
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  Leo Schordje on Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:10 pm


Leo Schordje
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  MrFancyPlants on Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:33 pm

Leo,
 Thank you for taking the time to respond.  You have given me some food for thought for how to proceed.  I am familiar with the concept of sacrifice branches and of course would like to improve the taper whenever possible, but I am concerned that the first two branches are pretty close together on the the trunk,  There is already some reverse taper and I am afraid it might get worse if I were to grow out the first branch too long.  However, in combination with a sacrifice around the fourth or fifth branch might be just the trick.
  I think I'll stick to my plan for repotting this spring to take advantage of this vigorous growth and because you have to sort the roots out sooner or later, and the weight of the buried nebari may have some influence over the front and how the taper should be addressed.  In the meantime I will practice balancing the growth on the branches up top so that I can learn how it responds to general pruning and maybe a lower "apex" will jump out at me..  there are a few options available, but I do enjoy the natural placement and spacing of what is already there.

Thanks again,
David

MrFancyPlants
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  Hoo on Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:57 pm

I like the approach you're taking with the development of this tree. I collected a few eastern hemlocks over the past few years and am heading down a similar road. All of mine are healthy and established and have put out vigorous growth this year so I think it is time to begin a bit of work on them. When do you perform major pruning, spring or fall? How about repotting and rootwork? Any advice you could provide regarding working on these amazing trees and how they respond would be most appreciated. Cheers!

Hoo
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  kevin stoeveken on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:24 pm

MrFancyPlants wrote:I almost wish I could take the top off of the current pot for training just to give those lower branches some breathing room, but I would likely end up with a broken pot.

i have used a channel lock pliers to whittle down terra cotta pots and it is fairly predictable if you are careful with your grab and pressure...

i havent yet lost much more than i was trying to get rid of and it can make a mundane pot at least interesting...

(before that i tried several different types of rock hammers, but that is a true crap shoot)

btw - got some fun waves on michigan this past monday... chest high and clean.  sunny 

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

aka beer city snake
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

kevin stoeveken
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  MrFancyPlants on Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:30 pm

Leo,
You have me sold on the idea of a Yi Xing purple clay pot. Although, rather than training in a flat, I would like to compromise and have a deeper training pot. I am also not quite sold on a round, although I agree the front will probably move around in the future, I am kind of stuck on the idea of a lotus like this:http://www.bonsaioutlet.com/16-yixing-pot-yx148-1/ , but I don't think this one is big enough. I'll keep an eye out and will probably need a variety of shapes and sizes on hand in case the tree has it's own plans come repotting time.

Kevin, I am jealous you scored some surf. I got some boogie boarding in over the 4th in lake erie, but other than that it has been too long for me.

Steve,
I am far from an expert when it comes to knowing Eastern Hemlock's habit, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Initially, I collected in late spring and chopped the top and roots severely in one go and over potted it in a bright shady spot for the year and it showed no new growth until the following spring. Ideally, I would have done this step (or repotting) soon after the last frost. This year, my general approach has been to take things slow and remove small pieces at a time, and only once it was showing vigorous growth. My requirements for removal were (it won't be a part of the final design or is redundant to another preferable branch) AND (it could shade out lower inner growth or if it would contribute to thickening a branch that is already too thick.) I have been removing bits and pieces using this methodology since this spring and although I have not seen backbudding yet, even the lowest, innermost buds have extended and are showing energy. This may be overly conservative, but this is my only "Yamadori" if I may use the term.

MrFancyPlants
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  Leo Schordje on Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:32 pm

YiXing pots are available from many different retailers, and tend to be modest in price. Definitely shop around. If you are not going to use a round, nothing wrong with a rectangular. The lotus shape is nice, and functionally can work much like a round.

Keep the forum posted with progress photos, I'm interested in the progression.

Leo Schordje
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  appalachianOwl on Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:55 pm

So Mr.FancyPlants, have as of recent herd some tsuga info from a buddy's ecounter, thaught would share, not alot of info out there on these. To achieve better back budding treat as yew, do not know the yew methods as of yet(somebody?), something like stripping old needles when in growth mode though. From this guy, literally a friend of a friend, he has had no sensative root issues, and caring from them for some time now. It looks as yours in happy and heathy, and right on its way! One of my favorite natives, have one as well, keep us posted please.

appalachianOwl
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  kevin stoeveken on Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:33 pm

hey plancyfants (i couldnt find your name anywhere ?)... i agree with you re: pot choice... so many folks seem to be against using a decent pot for training purposes, but i'm of the mind that "why cant it look decent while its in training ?"

granted, some training pots offer advantages, such as pond baskets, etc and some like wood flats are cheap, but if you find a decent sized pot that looks good AND serves its intended purpose, being furthering, and not hindering, the development, then go ahead and stick it in !!! (thats what sh... oh, never mind  Razz )

re surf: i still bodyboard sometimes too... its still a blast, but note i said bodyboarding, not boogie boarding  Wink 
even the inventor of the "boogie"board stopped calling it that...
what was once Morey Boggieboards is now Morey Bodyboards (just sounds a lot less like kiddie play)

_________________

AAC Original Milwaukee Wi. Chapter - North America

aka beer city snake
link to ARBOR ARTS COLLECTIVE BLOG

kevin stoeveken
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  MrFancyPlants on Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:56 pm

So I measured the radius of the top of the existing garden pot and it is exactly 16 inches or the same as the pot I linked to, so it could be a possibility for the next training pot. Do you have any other sites I could check out for comparing prices on purple clay YiXing pottery? I've searched around, but haven't found many if the larger pots.
I do have a little yew that I have grown from seed and that one seems to back-bud if you look at it funny. I don't think the tsuga will respond quite the same, but perhaps maybe with a few more strong growing seasons like this one.

David

MrFancyPlants
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  appalachianOwl on Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:09 am

What I personally have noticed of the ones is my care, one will achieve much better developement if this time is spent in the ground, they are much slower to respond in a pot, which is great for its refining and maintaing stages.

appalachianOwl
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  MrFancyPlants on Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:02 pm

I have a number of trees that would be better served if they had spent the last 7 or 8 years in the ground instead of a pot, but fortunately I am not in a rush. This is actually my largest tree. I am not dissatisfied with the thickness of the trunk. Although, the taper could use some improvement, I think that could at least partially be remedied by carving and charring the chop site down a ways. Even the reverse taper could be dealt with by removing the twisting (crossing) branch, but I think a few broken rules will add to the appeal of the future design.
My next priority is to sort out the roots and nebari, then I will reconsider taper.

MrFancyPlants
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  appalachianOwl on Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:17 am

Was really just thinking about a better likelihood for back budding during branch development. Taper shmaper, carving can solve anything, I like the thickness as it stands. Wink Lets see them roots!

appalachianOwl
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  MrFancyPlants on Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:19 pm

I potted into a training pot that a friend gave me for helping water his trees over the summer while he was recovering from double hip replacement. It is not the final pot, but is much shallower and a bit wider than the initial pot. It sure didn't skip a beat after the repotting. I was planning on letting it recover for at least a year, but I am going to need to do some thinning to open up the inside to some more light.. no birds are flying through these branches.

I repotted at a workshop with Roy Nagotoshi. I think he was hoping to style the top and recommended jinning the crossing branch that I have deliberated over in the past. He understood when I said that I would consider jinning the branch, but that I wanted to focus on root development for the time being. He also said the pot was way to big but that it was probably the right size for training. He was also complimentary of my soil mixture (30% akadama, 30% calidama, 30% pumice + 5% spaghnum and 5% vermi-compost) and said that he likes my way of thinking about bonsai... Cool

The first photo was from immediately after the workshop. I did do some trimming and thinning then. and the second photo was a month and a half later from the opposite and back side. I trimmed one long straight bottom branch and used some twine to bring down the remaining portion of the branch that was reduced. I plan on running guy wires to many of the branches in order to bring them down and distribute the foliage so that more light can get in to the center.. I am not sure when I will do this though, maybe not until next year.

I do think there is a better base of roots hiding under there. I remember a wagon wheel of big roots that I had to wedge in to the initial training pot. Should I (next year) add some soil to the bottom to slowly raise the roots out of the pot for a reveal? There are a couple roots that I thought were awkward surface roots, but everyone one says to leave them when I talk about trying to dig down deeper. These heal wounds incredibly fast.




MrFancyPlants
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  MrFancyPlants on Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:04 am

I thinned it out and spun it around about a month ago.

MrFancyPlants
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  Leo Schordje on Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:10 pm

coming along nice

I would use wire, to bring down the lower branches, they currently are curving up, a ''youthful'' trait, straighten them out or bring them down, unless their only function is as sacrifice branches. If they are sacrifice, remove foliage close to trunk to keep them from shading the ''keepers''.

but coming along nice.

Leo Schordje
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  MrFancyPlants on Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:05 pm

Since this photo I wired down the bottom branch.. well I used a "guy twine" tied in a loop and looped it around two brach stubs and then one of the feet of the pot. It pulled it down pretty well, although it will need a real wiring at some point as well to make the movement more natural. I'll probably just do a branch at a time and work my way up the tree. Fortunately the wood is quite flexible, and it is growing so fast it hold the bends I put in rather quickly, with only a little spring back.
There are only a couple sacrifice branches right now and I have cleared out the inner growth on them.. there are more branches that I am letting extend with sacrifice growth, to help with the taper, but I have been reducing that periodically to keep the branches from getting too lumpy. I'm doing a workshop in September at the National Arboretum, and I think I will bring this to try and get the apex sorted out.
I sure can't complain with the amount of growth that I was rewarded with after the repotting this spring. I am looking forward to when I have developed the ramification to the point where I can let it run free and display it's own natural growth habit again.. but first I need to put the base structure in place.

Thanks for the input.

MrFancyPlants
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: tsuga canadensis

Post  Sponsored content Today at 10:37 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum