Pine.S collected 2011

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Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Dreamcast on Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:49 pm

Hello!

This pine have now had many years to get establish in its pot so thinking of doing first styling this year, but my biggest problem is the long straight part after the curved trunk, don't know if i dare attempt to bend it or if i should just let it be... what do you guys think? Any idea for the future design?

Sorry for the bad photos, and the widest part of the trunk is still hidden under the soil line.







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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Dreamcast on Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:19 pm

Maybe i should just repot it this year and wait with first styling...

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Todd Ellis on Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:06 pm

One of IBC's more experienced pine growers, Pavel, has done some amazing things with his pines. I wonder what he would do?
I think that more movement in the straight part would create a better, more consistent story of the tree's history.

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Dreamcast on Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:45 pm

Yeah, Pavel,s work with pines really is amazing!
Its just very intimidating to bend that large diameter trunk since i never done something like that before.. to bad the lower branches where dead since those would have made styling this material so much easier.

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Dreamcast on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:53 am

Ideas, links or any other info on how to go about bending the straight part of the trunk? i would say its about 10 cm thick.

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:41 pm

I don't presume to know for certain what you should do with this tree I can only suggest what I would consider doing. Understanding that I really can't examine the growth on this tree in a detailed manner, my opinion is only that: I know with the trunk the way it is and if it is so, as you say, that the largest part of the trunk is yet below ground, than you have to consider that this tree, as it is, will be conflicted. What I mean is you have a wide base and a twisted trunk followed by a really straight trunk where all of the green growth occurs----or course you know this. However; the two elements will never be able to be conformed to each other in a way that makes it look natural or believable. Understanding that you cannot (even if you wished to do so), Straighten the base of trunk to make it compatible with the top of the tree. So you have only one solution: Drastic bending or reduction of the top of the tree. Examine all of the growing points on the lower of the two splits in the trunk and consider removing the upper one (the left one in you photo). Your last photo brings thing to a composition where the removal of that part of the tree and the subsequent wiring and bending of the remaining trunk could leave you with a really nice bonsai needing only some additional training and if I may make a new word: Paveling.

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  JimLewis on Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:49 pm

Is this close, Vance?



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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:58 pm

 Yes that is close but do that with his third image.  He could then more easily bend that portion of the trunk to the right and down and bring some of the branches down and out to the right.  He could then bring some of the remaining branches down and to the left to build a crown at about the same location as the now dead branches are located.

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Todd Ellis on Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:07 pm

This sounds like a good solution Vance.

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:39 pm

Todd Ellis wrote:This sounds like a good solution Vance.

Thanks.  I am not real good at doing virtuals but I think this tree has a great deal of potential I tried to put together a virtual.  It shows the basic superstructure that is currently present even without drastic bending and wiring.


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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:46 pm

You could bring the left side of the tree down pretty far and with all the branching left you should be able to Pavel this tree nicely.

Sorry Pavel, I hope I am not insulting you but I think your name is synonymous with you skills.  I would hope the owner of this tree would look at this tree as though you were working on it and give it the same kind of treatment;  therefore the term "Pavel" the tree.  The real temptation with this material is to attempt to keep all the upper growth and try to adapt that into some sort of as yet undefined pattern,  what I call Vanceing the tree.  Which is something I probably would have done several years ago.  I think my solution is at least a jump down the right rabbit hole.

Funny thing. It takes years for people years to understand and "see" the concept of cutting a tree down into a bonsai.

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Dreamcast on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:53 pm

Thanks for the ideas, you guys rock! i also think that part of the crown have to go, any design that involve not bending the thicker parts of the trunk feels better somehow, don't want to kill it... the only reason i have not done anything with this tree yet is cause i wanted it to get really healthy first...

Thinking back at when i collected this gave me a new idea for a possible design, since is was growing on a rock the base of the trunk is very flat with all the roots going in one direction (rootmat of about 1 meter long) and a big tap root on the opposite side witch i did cut off.

So by changing the planting angle like this

Bad virtual in paint..

Simple quick sketch..

I think this would make a nice compact image, and a possibility for some exposed roots and maybe even a pretty good nebari, what do you guys think? is it "Pavel" enough? Smile

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:11 pm

You're basing this image on the nature of the trunk that is yet below ground?  If this is not what you are looking at, you might want to think about what is really going on here. The angle at which the trunk, we see in your photograph, is 90*s off, from the angle the trunk enters the ground in your virtual.  That's the problem with vitruals, they are for all intents and purposes electronic imagination and may or may not be accurate.  If the trunk is as you say in your virtual you are still faced with a good deal of bending but it is a good choice.

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Dreamcast on Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:45 pm

Vance, from memory this is how the trunk looks like below the soil level and how it was potted after collecting.

Bending the branches of the crown to create this image should not be to big of a problem even for a novice like my self, worst case scenario i will take some help from a more experienced friend.

Now feels like a repotting to confirm my memory of the hidden part of the trunk is priority no.1 this year, and first styling next year.. what do you think?

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:34 pm

sounds like a plan.

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Dreamcast on Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:40 pm

i have read that its not ideal to do a repot and styling of pines in the same year, but if i don't cut any roots and the tree grows well and show no major sign of stress after, would it then be ok to cut of the large piece in the crown after the summer?

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:54 pm

I have done both in the same year with no side effects as long a the tree is potted at the right time, after the 24th of June. I know but it was asked and I have told you what I have been doing for years with both Mugo and Scots Pines. I know I am a nobody but there ya go.

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Dreamcast on Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:16 am

Vance, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, its because of people like yourself and the advice you give that makes me more confident at working more efficiently with my trees. :)Feels like quite easy to become overly cautious when doing bonsai sometimes...

Do you do both repotting and styling/cutting at the same time?

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Vance Wood on Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:56 am

Yes I do but only for Scots and Mugo Pines.  With Black Pines, I default to those with more experience with them.

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Dreamcast on Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:52 pm

Thanks for that answer, just what i was hopping to hear! Very Happy Any special aftercare i should think about maybe?

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Re: Pine.S collected 2011

Post  Vance Wood on Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:41 pm

Dreamcast wrote:Thanks for that answer, just what i was hopping to hear! :DAny special aftercare i should think about maybe?

Keep the tree in partial shade for a week to ten days and watch that you don't over water but; make sure you water when the tree needs it.

As long as we are on the subject of watering make sure your soil mix is fast draining.  Another oddity about Mugos:  They like a lot of water but don't like to be wet.  The only way to accomplish this is to have a fast draining soil mix.

It really boils down to the tree loves a soil mix that breathes. This means: When it is watered the water forces the air in the soil out. The drainage factor sucks the air back in and the soil dries out. Thus the soil breaths. Mugos seem to appreciate this kind of activity. Therefore they like to be watered but don't like to be wet.

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