Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

One question Max, is this tree the result of 6 years of your styling?

mambo wrote:One question Max, is this tree the result of 6 years of your styling?

mambo, you are my hero! NO, of course not.
Otherwise it would look quite different allready.

Max, so many choices for this tree. One thing is for sure, it will improve with time. Finding suitable Oak material is no easy task. Your tree has great bones and has stunning aspects now. I am impressed with its taper and rough bark. I wonder if the more experienced can tell us if the bark at the bottom of the root base can ever "catch up" to the the other bark. Or is layering the only option to take care of this issue.
Best,
Todd

Quite an impressive tree in several ways. I think Marcus' criteria for evaluation are very good. If you let the tree "soak in" to your senses you will be able to realize it's needs. But as another said, it depends on what is in store for the tree in it's future. That will determine which road you take.

Hello Max. I have gone with the amount of branches you have already. Because the majority of Oak branches ascend, they will fill the spaces you have between branches. Ran out of room at the top though. Hope this explains what I mean.

Hey Will,
thank you very much for your virtual! It explains quite good what you said.
But there are two tiny problems about it. 1. The tree would be over 1m in height which means disqualification in context to the classical bonsai rules and so on any exhibition. 2. The pot would have to be at least 1 m now. So this oak would somehow become a real tree instead of a bonsai.
Anyway I will try to come close to what you suggest!

Best wishes!
Max

I think the 1M rule is only a guideline. I have seen many trees over that mark and have a couple myself. Why compromise the height of the tree you want to design because it is over 1M. Makes no sense.

Max wrote:Hey Will,
thank you very much for your virtual! It explains quite good what you said.
But there are two tiny problems about it. 1. The tree would be over 1m in height which means disqualification in context to the classical bonsai rules and so on any exhibition. 2. The pot would have to be at least 1 m now. So this oak would somehow become a real tree instead of a bonsai.
Anyway I will try to come close to what you suggest!

Best wishes!
Max

Screw the contests that ban trees over a certain height. What do you care? If you do what Will has shown, and you insist on following some silly rule, then layer it. Not sure what you're looking for now.

If this tree gets over 1m I can't
-handle it
-transport it
-and can't display it.

I would need
a huge new table for presentation and for the garden
a huge new pot (preferably handmade)
a very big new car
an own caterpillar just for this tree...
and as said if I ever want to show it there will be some further problems.

By the way its weight already makes huge problems.
Is this all realy so hard to imagine?
You may be very strong guys but I promise you would have the same difficulties!

Max wrote:

mambo wrote:One question Max, is this tree the result of 6 years of your styling?

mambo, you are my hero! NO, of course not.
Otherwise it would look quite different allready.

Maybe I wouldn't have been your hero if you had answered yes to this question!

Max wrote:If this tree gets over 1m I can't
-handle it
-transport it
-and can't display it.

I would need
a huge new table for presentation and for the garden
a huge new pot (preferably handmade)
a very big new car
an own caterpillar just for this tree...
and as said if I ever want to show it there will be some further problems.

By the way its weight already makes huge problems.
Is this all realy so hard to imagine?
You may be very strong guys but I promise you would have the same difficulties!

So, it is already too big to lift, to transport, too expensive to repot just because it grows a bit taller. So WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?

lordy wrote:So, it is already too big to lift, to transport, too expensive to repot just because it grows a bit taller. So WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?

What??? I don't understand.
The tree as planed is the absolute maximum size I can handle.

Todd Ellis wrote:Max, so many choices for this tree. One thing is for sure, it will improve with time. Finding suitable Oak material is no easy task. Your tree has great bones and has stunning aspects now. I am impressed with its taper and rough bark. I wonder if the more experienced can tell us if the bark at the bottom of the root base can ever "catch up" to the the other bark. Or is layering the only option to take care of this issue.
Best,
Todd

Hi Todd,

I have used another method but it is slow. I am currently using it on this Fraxinus that suffered from the same problem.



Essentially I slash the bark vertically with a cutter (lots and lots of small cuts). Then I wrap in sphagnum moss, followed by raffia. Keep it wet and check once a year.

I have heard of people tapping the area with a hammer causing it to bruise and thicken as well as improve the bark, but you have to be careful not to overdo it otherwise you can kill the tree!

I think what Lordy is saying when you post all the reasons not to have a big tree, why have a big tree?

I was simply restating what you posted earlier:
tree is too big and heavy to lift,
tree is too tall to fit into a car,
If it gets bigger you will need a new pot.

My question to you is this: Considering all the factors noted above, what do YOU think should happen?

lordy wrote:I was simply restating what you posted earlier:
tree is too big and heavy to lift,
tree is too tall to fit into a car,
If it gets bigger you will need a new pot.

My question to you is this: Considering all the factors noted above, what do YOU think should happen?

Sorry, I still don't understand the problem!
As you can see in my virtual I don't plan to let it become any bigger.
I will not need a bigger pot and will not get a bigger plant.
Right now its the maximum I can handle. What is so hard to understand about this?
I didn't write anything different! I didn't write anywhere that it already is too big!!! Its just at my maximum right now!!

Just wondering what your plans are for the tree moving forward.

Pretty simple,

just restart from the first branch.
Later.
Khaimraj

Personally I think you will struggle to maintain its present height as it is too close to the trunk. Branches add minimal weight to the already heavy tree and the present pot looks too small for the tree already.
Dorothy made the suggestion of a training pot which is a good idea. A training box if you don't have a pot to hand maybe?

I think this is a great tree, but it's just too tall in proportion. If you could possibly air layer the top off from where the first bottom branch begins I think it would be a great new start to restyling the tree. I made a quick virt of what I'm thinking.

Hi Kennedy,

Whilst the virtual is good.

Personally, and this is just my taste, I think it would be a crime to air layer so high up on the tree.

Max, it looks as if you have a completely unresolvable problem re-the design of the tree as it will require some increase in height. By the time you have added a larger pot and all that extra soil, you will not be able to lift this tree at all or show it at shows that don't allow trees of over 1 metre.

I have a suggestion for you. I will go round, pick it up and take it home. I will then sacrifice 10 years of my life getting it to where it should be. This is an offer you should definitely consider as it will save you not only in aspirin for all those headaches I see coming your way, but also the surgery to repair the hernia you will no doubt get when you do try to lift it. Your other solution is to spend 40 euros per month at the local gym for the next 10 years. This equals 4,800 euros. If you factor in the supplements you will need to take to build the required muscle - creatine, protein, amino acids etc at 80 euros per month minimum, you will have spent almost 15,000 euros just to own this tree. The way I see it I am doing you an immense favour.

Believe me, it is the best thing for your health and the tree. Plus these grow better in my climate. So go ahead and do the right thing.....

Hey Max, I see great potential in this tree. As with the others who are wondering the same, what are your plans for the tree?

You mentioned that this tree is not finished in orinigal post so I just want a glimps of what your intentions are for the 'finish' tree.

Best of luck,

Luc

Hey Max,

If it were me choosing what you do, I'd suggest that you stick it in the ground and let the thing thicken up its branches and base. The difference between the branch diameters and trunk diameters just don't work, and unless you get some SERIOUS growth into those branches I'm of the opinion that the tree's gonna look odd for a long long time. Of course, putting it in the ground for 5 to 10 years gets you past a few of your problems - you will not have to lift it. You will not need to find a bigger pot, you will not need to put in in your car, and you will not need to show it. Added to all those, it may get that bark going.

Of course the other thing you need to think about is whether you see a good design for this tree within the limitations you have set for yourself. Is it a tree that you should keep, or possibly swap/sell for something which has better starting dimensions for what you are looking to develop. A trunk that thick and tall needs appropriate foliage to make it look convincing as a bonsai, and as for that 1 meter rule - well, let me just say that I personally think that it is a pity that you allow a rule like that to possibly compromise a potentially lovely tree that needs a bit of height to make it work.

That virt you did may work, but I think it would be better if you allow those bottom branches to ascend before they descend. It will also give the tree more width and visual weight which I think would be good with such a heavy trunk. As for the pot, I think it's probably too premature to be finalising something, but 5 to 10 years down the line I'd go for a wider pot with a crackled cream/sand coloured glaze and plant it off centre. I think. That said, I'm personally terribly guilty of potting my trees into show pots WAY too early. Dorothy speaks sense though and the sooner we listen to what she's saying, the better for us both.

Finally, if you come out of the blocks with such a negative post, don't be too surprised when it come right back at you mate. Not everyone is going to agree with your designs/visions/techniques, but that's life. You need to get over it because bonsai is not all ones and zeros, and differences of opinion are gonna happen.

Cheers,

Andrew

How's the Cornus you posted a year ago coming along?

Max, I think the tree has great potential as it is. I would not limit yourself to its current state however, and think that wills virtual is a much more agreeable image of a tree. I don't think that growing twigs will make the tree so much heavier

[quote="Max"]This tree to me is a bonsai...
Its a Quercus cerris or Turkey oak and its been styled for 6 years now. Still its not finished as I have to say since some people will again think its the best I can. Feel free to criticize it as hard as you can without seeing any good about it. I am sorry for being a little cynical after one of my last threads...

Max, you are a young man, well traveled, and devoted to bonsai. You apologized for being cynical in your last thread, and you are making excuses to people who have given you sound advice. As an elder more than twice your age, I want to share an observation: your nature is very contrary whenever anyone gives you advice. You asked for advice and the wisdom in this thread supports this advice. Yet, you still continue to make excuses. Listen to the wisdom of those who took the time to answer your call for help. Many of us wish we were your age with the material you have.

Either you like your tree or you don't. It appears that you like your tree, but seemingly do not appreciate the nature of this particular tree. It is a large tree and large trees are ... well LARGE. Our trees are constantly changing, if they are growing that is. Make a commitment to this specimen or, please, pass it along to someone who can realize its potential.

Even the best bonsai change and grow throughout their lives. The best Mame and Shohin trees often outgrow their class due to the fact that they continue to grow.

Enjoy this journey of growing these awesome trees!

Regards,
Todd