Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  lordy on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:14 pm

Max wrote:If this tree gets over 1m I can't
-handle it
-transport it
-and can't display it.

I would need
a huge new table for presentation and for the garden
a huge new pot (preferably handmade)
a very big new car
an own caterpillar just for this tree...
and as said if I ever want to show it there will be some further problems.

By the way its weight already makes huge problems.
Is this all realy so hard to imagine?
You may be very strong guys but I promise you would have the same difficulties!
So, it is already too big to lift, to transport, too expensive to repot just because it grows a bit taller. So WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?

lordy
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  Max on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:17 pm

lordy wrote:So, it is already too big to lift, to transport, too expensive to repot just because it grows a bit taller. So WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?

What??? I don't understand.
The tree as planed is the absolute maximum size I can handle.

Max
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  mambo on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:21 pm

Todd Ellis wrote:Max, so many choices for this tree. One thing is for sure, it will improve with time. Finding suitable Oak material is no easy task. Your tree has great bones and has stunning aspects now. I am impressed with its taper and rough bark. I wonder if the more experienced can tell us if the bark at the bottom of the root base can ever "catch up" to the the other bark. Or is layering the only option to take care of this issue.
Best,
Todd

Hi Todd,

I have used another method but it is slow. I am currently using it on this Fraxinus that suffered from the same problem.



Essentially I slash the bark vertically with a cutter (lots and lots of small cuts). Then I wrap in sphagnum moss, followed by raffia. Keep it wet and check once a year.

I have heard of people tapping the area with a hammer causing it to bruise and thicken as well as improve the bark, but you have to be careful not to overdo it otherwise you can kill the tree!

mambo
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  will baddeley on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:22 pm

I think what Lordy is saying when you post all the reasons not to have a big tree, why have a big tree?

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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  lordy on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:23 pm

I was simply restating what you posted earlier:
tree is too big and heavy to lift,
tree is too tall to fit into a car,
If it gets bigger you will need a new pot.

My question to you is this: Considering all the factors noted above, what do YOU think should happen?

lordy
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  Max on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:27 pm

lordy wrote:I was simply restating what you posted earlier:
tree is too big and heavy to lift,
tree is too tall to fit into a car,
If it gets bigger you will need a new pot.

My question to you is this: Considering all the factors noted above, what do YOU think should happen?

Sorry, I still don't understand the problem!
As you can see in my virtual I don't plan to let it become any bigger.
I will not need a bigger pot and will not get a bigger plant.
Right now its the maximum I can handle. What is so hard to understand about this?
I didn't write anything different! I didn't write anywhere that it already is too big!!! Its just at my maximum right now!!

Max
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  lordy on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Just wondering what your plans are for the tree moving forward.

lordy
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:58 pm

Pretty simple,

just restart from the first branch.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  will baddeley on Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:02 pm

Personally I think you will struggle to maintain its present height as it is too close to the trunk. Branches add minimal weight to the already heavy tree and the present pot looks too small for the tree already.
Dorothy made the suggestion of a training pot which is a good idea. A training box if you don't have a pot to hand maybe?

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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  KennedyMarx on Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:43 pm

I think this is a great tree, but it's just too tall in proportion. If you could possibly air layer the top off from where the first bottom branch begins I think it would be a great new start to restyling the tree. I made a quick virt of what I'm thinking.


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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  mambo on Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:31 pm

Hi Kennedy,

Whilst the virtual is good.

Personally, and this is just my taste, I think it would be a crime to air layer so high up on the tree.

Max, it looks as if you have a completely unresolvable problem re-the design of the tree as it will require some increase in height. By the time you have added a larger pot and all that extra soil, you will not be able to lift this tree at all or show it at shows that don't allow trees of over 1 metre.

I have a suggestion for you. I will go round, pick it up and take it home. I will then sacrifice 10 years of my life getting it to where it should be. This is an offer you should definitely consider as it will save you not only in aspirin for all those headaches I see coming your way, but also the surgery to repair the hernia you will no doubt get when you do try to lift it. Your other solution is to spend 40 euros per month at the local gym for the next 10 years. This equals 4,800 euros. If you factor in the supplements you will need to take to build the required muscle - creatine, protein, amino acids etc at 80 euros per month minimum, you will have spent almost 15,000 euros just to own this tree. The way I see it I am doing you an immense favour. Laughing

Believe me, it is the best thing for your health and the tree. Plus these grow better in my climate. So go ahead and do the right thing.....

mambo
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  luc tran on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:17 pm

Hey Max, I see great potential in this tree. As with the others who are wondering the same, what are your plans for the tree?

You mentioned that this tree is not finished in orinigal post so I just want a glimps of what your intentions are for the 'finish' tree.

Best of luck,

Luc

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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  Andrew Legg on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:20 pm

Hey Max,

If it were me choosing what you do, I'd suggest that you stick it in the ground and let the thing thicken up its branches and base. The difference between the branch diameters and trunk diameters just don't work, and unless you get some SERIOUS growth into those branches I'm of the opinion that the tree's gonna look odd for a long long time. Of course, putting it in the ground for 5 to 10 years gets you past a few of your problems - you will not have to lift it. You will not need to find a bigger pot, you will not need to put in in your car, and you will not need to show it. Added to all those, it may get that bark going.

Of course the other thing you need to think about is whether you see a good design for this tree within the limitations you have set for yourself. Is it a tree that you should keep, or possibly swap/sell for something which has better starting dimensions for what you are looking to develop. A trunk that thick and tall needs appropriate foliage to make it look convincing as a bonsai, and as for that 1 meter rule - well, let me just say that I personally think that it is a pity that you allow a rule like that to possibly compromise a potentially lovely tree that needs a bit of height to make it work.

That virt you did may work, but I think it would be better if you allow those bottom branches to ascend before they descend. It will also give the tree more width and visual weight which I think would be good with such a heavy trunk. As for the pot, I think it's probably too premature to be finalising something, but 5 to 10 years down the line I'd go for a wider pot with a crackled cream/sand coloured glaze and plant it off centre. I think. That said, I'm personally terribly guilty of potting my trees into show pots WAY too early. Dorothy speaks sense though and the sooner we listen to what she's saying, the better for us both.

Finally, if you come out of the blocks with such a negative post, don't be too surprised when it come right back at you mate. Not everyone is going to agree with your designs/visions/techniques, but that's life. You need to get over it because bonsai is not all ones and zeros, and differences of opinion are gonna happen.

Cheers,

Andrew

How's the Cornus you posted a year ago coming along?

Andrew Legg
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  tmmason10 on Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:43 am

Max, I think the tree has great potential as it is. I would not limit yourself to its current state however, and think that wills virtual is a much more agreeable image of a tree. I don't think that growing twigs will make the tree so much heavier

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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  Todd Ellis on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:45 am

[quote="Max"]This tree to me is a bonsai...
Its a Quercus cerris or Turkey oak and its been styled for 6 years now. Still its not finished as I have to say since some people will again think its the best I can. Feel free to criticize it as hard as you can without seeing any good about it. I am sorry for being a little cynical after one of my last threads...

Max, you are a young man, well traveled, and devoted to bonsai. You apologized for being cynical in your last thread, and you are making excuses to people who have given you sound advice. As an elder more than twice your age, I want to share an observation: your nature is very contrary whenever anyone gives you advice. You asked for advice and the wisdom in this thread supports this advice. Yet, you still continue to make excuses. Listen to the wisdom of those who took the time to answer your call for help. Many of us wish we were your age with the material you have.

Either you like your tree or you don't. It appears that you like your tree, but seemingly do not appreciate the nature of this particular tree. It is a large tree and large trees are ... well LARGE. Our trees are constantly changing, if they are growing that is. Make a commitment to this specimen or, please, pass it along to someone who can realize its potential.

Even the best bonsai change and grow throughout their lives. The best Mame and Shohin trees often outgrow their class due to the fact that they continue to grow.

Enjoy this journey of growing these awesome trees!

Regards,
Todd


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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  Guest on Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:49 am

Max wrote:If this tree gets over 1m I can't
-handle it
-transport it
-and can't display it.

I would need
a huge new table for presentation and for the garden
a huge new pot (preferably handmade)
a very big new car
an own caterpillar just for this tree...
and as said if I ever want to show it there will be some further problems.

By the way its weight already makes huge problems.
Is this all realy so hard to imagine?
You may be very strong guys but I promise you would have the same difficulties!


You are still a young man Max. Make the biggest tree possible (as bonsai) out of it. When you become older, you will tend to make smaller trees. but not now, It will restrict your ability to create both big and small trees in the future if you have no experience in dealing with all sizes. For now enjoy the big ones while you still can. All the problems you listed above, you can handle it easily when you you're a bit older, say 30 or 40+ year old, by that time your tree would come at a mature stage too.

...and what is wrong with buying caterpillar/forklift for your trees in the future if you could afford too. I've seen lot of people doing more than that just to keep the trees. And sometimes dedication makes the huge difference. And most of these trees are the ones that keep us entertained and inspired.

I'll try to make an sketch later.

from your fellow teen,
jun Wink

PS
On my part I am making much much bigger trees from 1 meter to 1.20 meters and been handling them quite easily.

Guest
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  Andre Beaurain on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:14 am

Andre Beaurain wrote:Max

I have my doubts that this is an Turkey Oak. Your leaves on your stunning tree is NOT that of a normal Turkey Oak.

In the Turkey Oak the leaves are much more lobed, and the lobed points are also more pointed, the entire leave is much narrower than other Oaks.

More likely to be either Quercus robur ( English Oak) Same leave

or Quercus pyrenaica....the grey bark, speaks of this oak. and the same leave as the English Oak.

Of course the acorn will settle this problem....what does it look like?

The Caucasian Oak also has the same leave...but this tree is very rare.





I assume you don't care.

And you SELL Bonsai.

Andre Beaurain
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  Max on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:55 pm

Hi everybody,

I am sorry for not answering to every post and also about the way I answered to some of them.
Thanks to everybody who made his statement about this tree. All these statements of course influence the tree's further development.
And I am absolutely confident about being able to realize what I see in this tree for the future!
One of my problems may be my age since many may think I am barely able to write my name...
This happened in every bonsai forum I am writing in. But this problem always disappeared over time.
Another problem may be my english which sometimes leads to misunderstandings or ambiguity I am afraid.
The biggest problem I have is to defend my ideas when I believe in them. Ergo I am sometimes quite aggressive and I know this.
Still I will not give up to write in this forum and to show trees.

My master is owning some of the biggest bonsai in Germany. Since we work together for 7 years now I think I know exactly about how big a tree should be for me and how big it can be. So once more feel free to continue writing everything you want about this tree. But please don't expect me to do anything in a different way to what I intended just because somebody wrote it. This doesn't mean I am thankless. It just means I am sure about what I do.

Best wishes
Max

Max
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  Andrew Legg on Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:26 pm

Max wrote:Hi everybody,
I am sorry for not answering to every post and also about the way I answered to some of them.
Thanks to everybody who made his statement about this tree. All these statements of course influence the tree's further development.
And I am absolutely confident about being able to realize what I see in this tree for the future!
One of my problems may be my age since many may think I am barely able to write my name...
This happened in every bonsai forum I am writing in. But this problem always disappeared over time.
Another problem may be my english which sometimes leads to misunderstandings or ambiguity I am afraid.
The biggest problem I have is to defend my ideas when I believe in them. Ergo I am sometimes quite aggressive and I know this.
Still I will not give up to write in this forum and to show trees.

My master is owning some of the biggest bonsai in Germany. Since we work together for 7 years now I think I know exactly about how big a tree should be for me and how big it can be. So once more feel free to continue writing everything you want about this tree. But please don't expect me to do anything in a different way to what I intended just because somebody wrote it. This doesn't mean I am thankless. It just means I am sure about what I do.
Best wishes
Max

Hey Max,

It takes a big man to apologise, so good on you for doing so mate! I think you need to be clear on your expectations from your posts up front. If you do this, then you may not get as many negative replies to your posts. This is an internet forum, and it is titled "bonsai discussion", so you're going to get responses both good and bad, and some of it will be clearly constructive, and some of it may just come across as negative. If you don't want critique, then rather post in the gallery section where this is explicitly a condition. It must be difficult communicating well in a language that is not your home language. Wer weiß, wenn ich meine Beiträge in Deutsch Ich bin sicher, Sie würden alle werden einen gehen bei mir zu schreiben versucht! confused (Thanks Google!!!)

I'm pleased that you are confident that you have a vision in mind that will satisfy you for this tree. That's as good a place as any to start! I don't think any reasonable person can get upset if you are not in love with their vision for your tree, and to be honest, if they do, then I guess it's their problem, not yours, but sometimes on these forums its just best to keep your opinion to yourself!!! I find myself biting my tongue regularly rather than voicing an opinion that's in my mind quite justified. In life, I find this a good rule, but even more so in anything to do with art as some people seem to get remarkably upset remarkably quickly. affraid

Back to the tree - well, I'm not sure I understand what you are aiming for, but hell, I have a tree growing in a Croc shoe, and I like it. That's what's important right!

Cheers,

Andrew


Andrew Legg
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  mambo on Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:40 pm

In defence of Max, I have German friends and they tend to be very direct in their way of saying things, which to us English (and perhaps others) with all this stupid political correctness nonsense can sometimes sound as if it borders on offensive. I have learned to make allowances for it as it is just the way they say things, especially when they speak in English...

mambo
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  luc tran on Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:27 pm

Hi Max,

It's good to be confidence, likewise its also good to be humble.

I appreciate an artists whom have clear ideas about what they want, but I am more appreciative of artists whom can explain the concepts of why and what they intend to do with the tree. It clears up a lot of questions regarding the development of the tree. Artisitcally everyone see things differently, but to make another aware of your own artistry is what I think is a big part of Bonsai. We use rules and guidelines as standards to judge, and its not bad to challenge them, but please say why.

Best of luck to your tree.

Luc


luc tran
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Just a thought

Post  BigDave on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:42 am

Max wrote: Feel free to criticize it as hard as you can


Seems there are two ways to enjoy forums.

1. Show trees and ask for ideas from others, many do this, so you get ideas and go forward.

2. Just Show your work, this is the tree, this is what I did, or am about to do. No help needed as they know what to do.

Perhaps, if you were to choose one approach, you might get a better outcome.

Good luck,

-big D





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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  gregb on Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:33 am

KennedyMarx wrote:I think this is a great tree, but it's just too tall in proportion. If you could possibly air layer the top off from where the first bottom branch begins I think it would be a great new start to restyling the tree. I made a quick virt of what I'm thinking.


This gets my vote ThumbsUp

gregb
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  marcus watts on Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:01 pm

Max wrote:

My master is owning some of the biggest bonsai in Germany. Since we work together for 7 years now I think I know exactly about how big a tree should be for me and how big it can be.

owning the biggest tree in the country does not always mean they own the best by a long way, size is not a replacement for true quality Max - to appreciate quality is a mature learning that comes many years after being seduced by big big big. Big is often used as a replacement for skill as it is so very easy to make a big tree, but to make and maintain a convincing small one is a true skill.

as an example I know exactly where probably the biggest acer palmatum 'bonsai' is living right now - is it good? - no it isn't, it is big but crude, it was not good enough for a very high quality show several years ago - the very skilled organiser labeled it as a garden tree, chopped and potted, and was correct in his observation - there are at least 100 better trees here of the same species that are 1/4 of the size but show the qualities expected in a high quality bonsai. Most often beginners are totally impressed by a big tree even if it is a poor tree as they are blinded by the size and are unable to really see the structure. I think it is why the real long term 'masters' end up working with shohin - i believe they are the pinacle of skill and ability even though i am not yet seduced by their charms (i am 20 years too young still Very Happy Razz Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil )

i guess in time Max you will develop your own personal unique tastes but it is understandable that the one who influences you currently has big trees so you are drawn to the same.( i like medium to semi large trees too - 27"-34" covers 95% of my trees) As i was learning i looked to each 'teacher' as a stepping stone and not the entire bridge though- i take a little from all of them to build my own bridge.

(the tree does need more branches to be a convincing Oak bonsai though)

well done for starting the topic and opening yourself up to critism though.

best regards Marcus

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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

Post  Max on Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:08 pm

Marcus,
your interpretation is far away from what I actually wrote!!!
I didn't say anything about quality of these big trees. I just said I know about the difficulties of a big bonsai. Nothing more, nothing less.
Why is this so hard to understand?

Max

marcus watts wrote:
Max wrote:

My master is owning some of the biggest bonsai in Germany. Since we work together for 7 years now I think I know exactly about how big a tree should be for me and how big it can be.

owning the biggest tree in the country does not always mean they own the best by a long way, size is not a replacement for true quality Max - to appreciate quality is a mature learning that comes many years after being seduced by big big big. Big is often used as a replacement for skill as it is so very easy to make a big tree, but to make and maintain a convincing small one is a true skill.

as an example I know exactly where probably the biggest acer palmatum 'bonsai' is living right now - is it good? - no it isn't, it is big but crude, it was not good enough for a very high quality show several years ago - the very skilled organiser labeled it as a garden tree, chopped and potted, and was correct in his observation - there are at least 100 better trees here of the same species that are 1/4 of the size but show the qualities expected in a high quality bonsai. Most often beginners are totally impressed by a big tree even if it is a poor tree as they are blinded by the size and are unable to really see the structure. I think it is why the real long term 'masters' end up working with shohin - i believe they are the pinacle of skill and ability even though i am not yet seduced by their charms (i am 20 years too young still Very Happy Razz Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil )

i guess in time Max you will develop your own personal unique tastes but it is understandable that the one who influences you currently has big trees so you are drawn to the same.( i like medium to semi large trees too - 27"-34" covers 95% of my trees) As i was learning i looked to each 'teacher' as a stepping stone and not the entire bridge though- i take a little from all of them to build my own bridge.

(the tree does need more branches to be a convincing Oak bonsai though)

well done for starting the topic and opening yourself up to critism though.

best regards Marcus

Max
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Re: Its probably not good enough for bonsai...

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