Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Vance Wood Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:48 pm

Dan W. wrote:Great discussion everyone! Would one of you mind taking pictures of the two Bonsai Today trees mentioned? I just checked and unfortunately I don't have either issue #51 or #35.

I have access to both BT editions but #51 is probably more illustrative than #35 in that IMHO the White Pine pictured in #51 was essentially reduced down to basic branching and no styling other than that which can be seen. I believe the tree is as it is pictured in BT #51 less of a tree after the reduction than it was prior. In the reduction, which was suggested as a goal to be achieved;---- to put it simply, and I am sorry with a bit of cruelty, a glorified stick in a pot. The Shimpaku in #35 is a better tree but I don't really see how this is an improvement. If I can find a way to get photos downloaded I will do so.

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:36 pm

Walter Pall wrote:Well, Kevin, it is slightly better. But it is as it is. We have to get used to it. In Europe we are used to this since the past millennium. It is normal here. But it is still worthwhile to question ths status quo once ina while, I think.

indeed... the status quo should always be questioned... but for now i think i will leave my monetary concerns behind and follow along this discussion as it was intended... TREES.

Vance Wood Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:39 pm

beer city snake wrote:
Walter Pall wrote:Well, Kevin, it is slightly better. But it is as it is. We have to get used to it. In Europe we are used to this since the past millennium. It is normal here. But it is still worthwhile to question ths status quo once ina while, I think.

indeed... the status quo should always be questioned... but for now i think i will leave my monetary concerns behind and follow along this discussion as it was intended... TREES.

That's a good thing. So far no one has posted a picture of a tree that they believe fulfills this mysterious and unattainable goal of a finished "Unfinished bonsai".

I really don't mean to be like this but what can I say? This is the way I am, I am hearing people wanting to have their cake and eat it too. I don't care if you have one of the worlds greatest examples of the worlds greatest, least styled, bonsai or not, just the fact that you have the faith in it and belief in it enough to post it here.

my nellie Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:26 pm

I do apologize for shifting the flow of the conversation back, but I would like to refer to the following quote on page 48 :

Arthur Joura wrote:... ...It's as dead and somber around this site as it is out my window right now. I notice it's the same on the couple of other bonsai forum sites I know of, and one of them might even be finished. ... ...
The ol' IBC still has a pulse, though, weak as it is. ... ...
Maybe if all the people left on Nut joined the few stragglers hanging around on IBC there would be enough traffic to make one decent forum. Won't happen though. We have to maintain tribal identity, right up to the point of extinction. That way someone gets to say they were the last one standing.

I know that FB has a lot to do with this. The so called "social media" are preferable than the fora.
However, the underlined sentence above has been my own question some time now. This is sad indeed realizing that the spirit of bonsai (as inspired by S. Kato) is incapable of uniting people exercising bonsai. Apart from bonsai styles or bonsai schools or bonsai trends or whatever you call it, do you believe that bonsai philosophy is outdated and does not fit to the contemporary scenery? But then what about this quote of Mr. A. Joura

JimLewis wrote:... ...BTW, Arthur sent his final note on the 20th Expo to participating clubs, and touched upon the discussion here. An excerpt follows (and I hope I'm not stealing his thunder from another post):
... ...
Meanwhile at the Expo our show, as usual, was organized around bonsai clubs in our region, with the emphasis placed on enjoying bonsai as a creative pastime.
the Expo was aimed at being lively and fun. ... ...
the Expo took pride in being comfortable, familiar and friendly. ... ...
I like the feeling that is in the air all that weekend, a feeling of camaraderie born of a shared enjoyment of the beauty of nature.
I always want the Expo to improve, but I would never want it to get better at the expense of that camaraderie. ... ...
Arthur

Vance Wood Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:26 am

Why do I have the feeling I am not going to get a picture of a bonsai illustrating this new old ideal for a finished bonsai?

MichaelS Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:27 am

[quote="Walter Pall"]

You look a real trees and do that. You create a 'tree'

Yes that is fair enough and I have many old pines in my area where I can ''copy'' some of their natural features and try to resist doing it the ''bonsai way''. Although I have to admit it is not easy to unlearn something you are so used to doing. Your hands work almost automatically without really thinking about what you're doing and you end up with yet another tree which looks like all the others. I can see that happening with nearly all the current demonstators both local and ''imported''
Problem No. 2: Styling a tree in this very individualistic (more natural way) is much more difficult to do because firstly every tree will be completely unique, and secondly it will probably take much more planning with lots of sketches and drawings so you know where the hell you are going over the years. I presume too that it will be much longer before you can exhibit your tree. If it is true that it is more difficult and takes longer does it follow that trying to do a demonstration will be also difficult as it will be impossible to end up with a ''finished'' tree in a couple of hours? Maybe you could make a start and then show everyone a a picture of the developed tree 10 years later? I wonder if an audience would like that!

Problem No3
Junipers. I don't think I have ever seen pictures of wild shimpaku anywhere. Maybe a few Japanese sketches. I know they must grow in every possible shape you can imagine on the cliffs but from what I have seen, it is very rare for the small branches at the tips to grow down or horizontally as they are usually shaped. They always seem to go up. So how should shimaku be shaped?
Like this maybe?

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 Image

Or this?

As can be seen, real wild mountain junipers are pretty crazy in their growth habits

Problem No.4
Most of us only have nursery grown material to work with not collected stuff which makes thigs even more difficult. However I guess identifying the problems is the first step.....

MichaelS Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:41 am

Vance Wood wrote:

That's a good thing.
So far no one has posted a picture of a tree that they believe fulfills this mysterious and unattainable goal of a finished "Unfinished bonsai".

Well Vance I personally don't have an example of a tree (conifer) which i believe fulfills what you are asking for so I can't really help with that. Indeed I'm pretty sure that after looking at thousands of pictures of pines and junipers there are not many examples in existence. Perhaps this is really just a discussion which needs to take place before we can see many examples starting to surface? If you look at some of the very eary Japanese Junipers from say the 30's to the 50's, you could say that they were not as heavily worked or manipulated as they are today. I know there is at least one old juniper collector in Japan who refuses to over work his trees and believes that preserving their natural flavour is of the utmost importance.

MichaelS Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:22 am

So here is a specific case for you.
Its a chinese juniper type. How would you go about styling this:

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 004

And trying to avoid the obvious..this:

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 004_Copy

Vance Wood Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:00 am

MichaelS wrote:So here is a specific case for you.
Its a chinese juniper type. How would you go about styling this:

And trying to avoid the obvious..this:

What I am understanding from some who adhere to this point of view;--- the first image would be the final image, the pads and design you show in your proposal in the second image would be the finished tree except it might be thinned our a bit.

MichaelS Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:03 am

wild juniper branches seem to be more like this: (very roughly of course)

I'm just fishing here...

Walter Pall Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:08 am

I suggest: like this. Junipers are special in the sense that most of the time it does not make sense to look at natural junipers to get a similar design. Natural junipers are an amorphous shrub. With junipers it is a good idea to emulate another species.

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 12552510

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:26 pm

MichaelS wrote:wild juniper branches seem to be more like this: (very roughly of course)

I'm just fishing here...

i think you caught something on your fishing trip with this last image...

Sam Ogranaja Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:13 pm

Walter Pall wrote:I suggest: like this. Junipers are special in the sense that most of the time it does not make sense to look at natural junipers to get a similar design. Natural junipers are an amorphous shrub. With junipers it is a good idea to emulate another species.

This to me is quite successful. There's nothing preventing you from grafting onto that tree to create quite literally anything you want. If it were mine, I'd take a direction like Walter's image which to me feels a lot like Robert Steven's hand; whose work I absolutely adore.

I'm very glad Walter is back and that Arthur keeps posting. I feel the conversation will keep steering towards the poor horse that was beaten to death eons ago but at least some of the posts are insightful about what makes some men tick and what they're willing to stand for; something sorely needed in our world.

Have a great week!
Sam

Arthur - I'll close with an inside joke. I have a hug in store for you next time I see you, or do Appalachians not hug Albanians either?

jgeanangel Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:36 pm

Walter Pall wrote:I suggest: like this. Junipers are special in the sense that most of the time it does not make sense to look at natural junipers to get a similar design. Natural junipers are an amorphous shrub. With junipers it is a good idea to emulate another species.

Hey Walter! I typically agree with most of what you say but the quote above just didn't make sense to me....
From my perspective junipers may not get as big as some trees(well some do) but many species certainly have a distinctive tree form that seems to be the basis for many efforts with junipers in bonsai....

just random images linked from a search
American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 20101126_queenofthehill_1

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 20101126_queenofthehill_1

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 Juniperus_osteosperma_1

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 Crosscountry175

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 Old-twisted-juniper-tree-very-gnarled-arches-national-park-36396326

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 GoSeeChamp3

it may be rare to see but they do get large...
American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 MtBaldyJuniper5326b

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 20140524-198-junipers-M

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 31 20140524-246-junipers-M

Walter Pall Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:10 pm

jgeanangel,

these are all American junipers. In Europe you will nevr see something like this. Here all junipers are amorphous shrubs.

Vance Wood Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:27 pm

I was going to ask you about that. In all of my studies I have not see much in the way of European Junipers outside of Sabina? and Communis.

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:34 pm

hey walter !

i mention this only because you mentioned the noelanders show last page:
but i just found out that marc noelander is going to be a guest artist here in milwaukee this coming year...
per our conversation in asheville this past october, how come we can afford marc, but we cannot afford you ??? Laughing

(i kid, i kid !!!)

maybe our budget has grown and we should revisit the possibility of bringing you back to stir the milwaukee pot which may be beginning to form that bit of skin on the surface like a pot of stew left to cool off the fire... tongue

(again - i kid, i kid !)

also of interest is that one of your acolytes, tom longfellow is doing a presentation on fairy tale bonsai at the milwaukee club's february meeting...
that one should be fun !

Walter Pall Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:44 pm

Well Kevin, as you may have read on another forum compared to me Marc is a REAL professional while I am just badass, whatever that is. So he should be much more expensive than I am. We can discuss this in April at Hidden Gardens.
Listen to Tom, it will be fun.

**Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai** Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:23 am

i dont follow other banzai forums...

but i would rather hang out with and learn from a bad-ass than a pro... Twisted Evil

bad-asses are more fun

MichaelS Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:29 am

Walter Pall wrote:I suggest: like this. Junipers are special in the sense that most of the time it does not make sense to look at natural junipers to get a similar design. Natural junipers are an amorphous shrub. With junipers it is a good idea to emulate another species.

This really going back to a conventional design but more open. It is fine but does not look like a wild tree to me. Does not really have that ''untouched by human'' look. I will have to think on it...

Vance Wood Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:34 pm

It seems to me we are faced with a conundrum; decide whether it is better to be criticized for making a tree look like something that pleases you, or be criticized for not doing anything to a tree except putting it in a pot? In my mind we have to look at this for the soul purpose of ringing our own bells. Why else would we do anything that it is not necessary to sustaining our own lives?

If the "accepted image" of bonsai is going to be something that you disagree with or find ugly then why do bonsai at all? If your work is going to be the source of ridicule from the so called elite then why show it? I know this is taking the argument beyond that which is intended but in any change of direction, unless it is a 360* change, you have to decide at what point does the direction settle on? This could be called entropy, a point where everything decomposes, degenerates or degrades down to where there is no more activity.

I love Walter's trees but there are those, recently, who find they show human intervention and therefore are not really natural. I would assume that much of that criticism is in making a tree look like something it would not look like in nature. However; if that was a driving rule and all bonsai would, should and shall be judged by that measure, most of our bonsai we now have, would be disallowed on that basis alone, they are contrary to their own nature.

I am not trying to be critical of any one in particular or argue that this is good and this is not, I just want to know: How then shall we live?

**JimLewis** Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:09 pm

Appropos of nothing much at all, aren't there two ways (at least) to design a tree?

1. For yourself, or
2. For someone else (judge, the rules of some show, the "public", or other [friend, mentor, etc.])

If for yourself, do whatever YOU want with it.

If for someone else, aim for their tastes or requirements. Don't worry if someone the tree is not designed to please sees it. Chances are, the tree will also please people or groups it wasn't "designed" to please.

Personally, I lean toward trees that Ma Nature seems to have had some hand in, and not toward the more "modern" Japanese or European, every-needle-or-leaf-in-its-place, plastic-topped trees. If Ma Nature had some human help with a given tree, that's fine.

Vance Wood Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:27 pm

JimLewis wrote:Appropos of nothing much at all, aren't there two ways (at least) to design a tree?

1. For yourself, or
2. For someone else (judge, the rules of some show, the "public", or other [friend, mentor, etc.])

If for yourself, do whatever YOU want with it.

If for someone else, aim for their tastes or requirements. Don't worry if someone the tree is not designed to please sees it. Chances are, the tree will also please people or groups it wasn't "designed" to please.

Personally, I lean toward trees that Ma Nature seems to have had some hand in, and not toward the more "modern" Japanese or European, every-needle-or-leaf-in-its-place, plastic-topped trees. If Ma Nature had some human help with a given tree, that's fine.

Can you post some examples?

MKBonsai Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:35 pm

Here's my view on this: Bonsai is Art.

Naturalistic Bonsai are like paintings by Constable and others - realistic and unstylised in many respects, very accurate and true to life, including all its faults.

Conventional Bonsai are more like impressionist art - they give an impression of a tree in a landscape more than being a highly accurate miniature version of reality.

Then there is the fairytale / fantasy style of Bonsai - and, lo and behold, other forms of art have areas full of such works.

I suspect there are, or will be others, but I think I've made my point.

So I think that there is room for all types of art and all types of bonsai - and room for all the purists and all the trail blazers in this world of ours and we should encourage all artists to be creative and to keep their trees alive first and foremost and not be too worried about conforming to standards - after all, its art we're making, not electrical goods.

Peace All.

JohnT - MKBonsai

Dan W. Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:23 pm

Thanks John! I agree whole heartedly.

I really admire what you guys, Arthur and Walter, are doing, which is the main reason I continue to follow this thread. Of course there has been great discussion from the rest of you here too!

But, I also admire many other artists out there with differing tastes and styles. I think all of the various tastes in bonsai design only add interest and depth to what we all enjoy as bonsai (or miniature trees in pots Wink

), and I'm personally glad there are so many differing styles and approaches. Imagine if we all thought, acted and created the same... all ate the same food, shared the same religion, danced to the same beat.. Sure everyone might get along.... maybe.. but then life would be Incredibly boring.

Sponsored content