Turface confusion

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Turface confusion

Post  PeacefulAres on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:29 am

A couple of months ago, I wanted to buy some Turface from a local john deere landscaping supply. I called and asked them if they carried the MVP variety, to which they answered that they only carry "All sport" which they said was the same thin as MVP, but under a different name. Not knowing anything about Turface, I decided to look up the "All sport," to which I got some differing results. Some saying that it's the same as MVP and some saying it was smaller. Now, when I eventually did buy the product, it was labeled, "All Sport Pro," and the particle size was a bit smaller than I was expecting, around 1/8" at the largest.

Fast forward to today, and I had somebody pick me up a bag of the All sport. Turns out, the product they purchased was totally different than what I got last time. This Turface came in a different bag, and was just called "All Sport," in addition to the larger particle size, different color and 5 dollar price different.

Now, I know there are many different turface products, as well as many products that are exactly the same as turface, but produced by different companies. So, what exactly is turface "All sport pro"?

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  John Lee on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:04 am

The same thing happened to me. The first time that I purchased it, it came in a paper type bag and was redish in color. The second time it came in a plastic bag and was tan in color. The red was a bit smaller. They both appear to be made out of the same material. I mixed them together and use them both. I actually like the red better as it blends with the lava that I use.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  AdamDunham on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:11 am

So is the Turface you are referring to "All Sport Pro" or "Turface Pro League"? It's my understanding that if it is the later, it comes in very very slightly smaller granules and different colors (light yellow/brown, grey, and reddish) as opposed to MVP's only one color selection. I believe that option is around due to adding a red hue to baseball infields.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  PeacefulAres on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:04 am

AdamDunham wrote: So is the Turface you are referring to "All Sport Pro" or "Turface Pro League"? It's my understanding that if it is the later, it comes in very very slightly smaller granules and different colors (light yellow/brown, grey, and reddish) as opposed to MVP's only one color selection. I believe that option is around due to adding a red hue to baseball infields.

From what I've been able to find out, via a few different websites, is that John Deere doesn't carry the products under the same names as Turface does. I bought two products: one was called "All sport pro," and the other just "All sport." The "All sport pro" was quite a bit smaller and is a very pale orange color when dried, and almost brick orange when wet. The "All sport" is bigger, sandy colored when dry and golden brown when wet.

It's possible that All sport pro is simply John Deere's name for Pro League, but that is really confusing. I don't understand why they can't carry it under one name.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:48 am

PeacefulAres wrote:
AdamDunham wrote: So is the Turface you are referring to "All Sport Pro" or "Turface Pro League"? It's my understanding that if it is the later, it comes in very very slightly smaller granules and different colors (light yellow/brown, grey, and reddish) as opposed to MVP's only one color selection. I believe that option is around due to adding a red hue to baseball infields.

From what I've been able to find out, via a few different websites, is that John Deere doesn't carry the products under the same names as Turface does. I bought two products: one was called "All sport pro," and the other just "All sport." The "All sport pro" was quite a bit smaller and is a very pale orange color when dried, and almost brick orange when wet. The "All sport" is bigger, sandy colored when dry and golden brown when wet.

It's possible that All sport pro is simply John Deere's name for Pro League, but that is really confusing. I don't understand why they can't carry it under one name.

I guess thats just marketing. They benefit from calling the same products different names. Customer is confused, tries it all buys it all, but getting more or less the same.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  PeacefulAres on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:10 am

yves71277 wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:
AdamDunham wrote: So is the Turface you are referring to "All Sport Pro" or "Turface Pro League"? It's my understanding that if it is the later, it comes in very very slightly smaller granules and different colors (light yellow/brown, grey, and reddish) as opposed to MVP's only one color selection. I believe that option is around due to adding a red hue to baseball infields.

From what I've been able to find out, via a few different websites, is that John Deere doesn't carry the products under the same names as Turface does. I bought two products: one was called "All sport pro," and the other just "All sport." The "All sport pro" was quite a bit smaller and is a very pale orange color when dried, and almost brick orange when wet. The "All sport" is bigger, sandy colored when dry and golden brown when wet.

It's possible that All sport pro is simply John Deere's name for Pro League, but that is really confusing. I don't understand why they can't carry it under one name.

I guess thats just marketing. They benefit from calling the same products different names. Customer is confused, tries it all buys it all, but getting more or less the same.

It's the kind of thing that will send me specifically away from them though. If I go to Napa, I know I can get 25 pound bags of calcined diatomite for 7 dollars. And it doesn't help that apparently, the people at John Deer Landscaping don't even know what they are talking about.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  bucknbonsai on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:09 pm

the turface I bought at john deer was not even on the product list on the turface website. Price went up to 22.50 for 50lb bag this year and 1/3 of it fell through a window screen. Based off someone else on this website i found mule mix (also calcined clay) for 9 dollars for 50lb and only a 1/5 of it falls through a window screen, it looks very similar to the napa diatomaceous earth in terms of size and variety of color in the same bag. The diatomaceous earth seems lighter weight when dry but not as hard of a particle even though they are both calcined. The napa stuff is still cheaper than mule mix, is there any reason why the napa stuff cant be used instead? Ive heard people say something about ion exchange or something. The napa stuff has 0% fall through a window screen.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  JimLewis on Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:19 pm

Mule Mix is made in the same manner as Turface and is the same basic material; baked clay. Its factory was in Georgia a few miles north of Tallahassee, Fla. where I used to live.

We bonsaiests must remember that neither product is manufactured for us. We buy the stuff in pounds, schools and baseball and other sports leagues buy it by the ton. Neither company would mind (or notice) if all bonsaiests suddenly stopped buying it.

But . . . Turface and its clones have the ability to hold more water than do diotomaceous earth products, or so I understand. I certainly prefer it over Oil Dri and unscented kitty litter.

I don't mind the smaller stuff, since most of my trees are of the smallish varieties, but those of you who grow the bigger ones might do better to look for a Mule Mix dealership. They're scarcer than Turface dalerships, though.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  bucknbonsai on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:20 pm

Jim, the diatomaceous earth bag specifically claims to hold 2x more water per weight than calcined clay. Im not trying to argue, just confused what product would be better. The NAPA is way easier to find and is cheaper.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:56 pm

JimLewis wrote:We bonsaiests must remember that neither product is manufactured for us. We buy the stuff in pounds, schools and baseball and other sports leagues buy it by the ton. Neither company would mind (or notice) if all bonsaiests suddenly stopped buying it.

exactly that, Jim !

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  drgonzo on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:37 pm

PeacefulAres wrote:
It's possible that All sport pro is simply John Deere's name for Pro League, but that is really confusing. I don't understand why they can't carry it under one name.

The "whats Turface..why is it this or that.... with these different names..." topic has come up several times. Whats helpful to remember is that the name "Turface" is not a product name its a brand name that is owned by a company called Profile LLc. Just like Cains is not a pickle name, its a brand name owned by Gedney foods.

As such Profile sells their various different calcined clay products to many different folks who then package it and re-sell it under their own names...and for their own prices..

-Jay

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  PeacefulAres on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:40 pm

Jim, bonsaists aren't the only people who use Turface though. It's a pretty popular ingredient among the container gardening community as a whole. Could these companies survive without us buying their products? Of course they could, but it still doesn't make sense to package your products in a way that is confusing and frustrating to the buyer.

drgonzo wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:
It's possible that All sport pro is simply John Deere's name for Pro League, but that is really confusing. I don't understand why they can't carry it under one name.

The "whats Turface..why is it this or that.... with these different names..." topic has come up several times. Whats helpful to remember is that the name "Turface" is not a product name its a brand name that is owned by a company called Profile LLc. Just like Cains is not a pickle name, its a brand name owned by Gedney foods.

As such Profile sells their various different calcined clay products to many different folks who then package it and re-sell it under their own names...and for their own prices..

-Jay

Jay, I was talking about the individual names for specific products, though. For instance, the people at John Deere landscaping told me that the all sport pro was the same thing as MVP, but it seems that is not true. I guess "All Sport Pro" is the same product as "Pro League," while "All Sport" is the same thing as MVP.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  Jesse McMahon on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:00 pm

I have a Turface distributor near me that I've been buying MVP from for a couple of years now. According to the folks there, the MVP has the highest content of larger particle size of any of their products. The amount of larger particle does seem like it can vary from bag to bag, but after looking around their warehouse at different products it seems like the best of the bunch.

I tried a bag of the Pro League (Turface Athletics) last year and my experience was that it had WAY less of the fines that the MVP has, but the entirety of the bag was basically 1/8 to 1/16" in terms of particle size. Color was similar, but slightly lighter orange if I recall correctly. I think the bottom line is that while their products are Calcined Clay they're all marketed for different uses or looks and therefore have different textural/color/size properties.

Just my $.02 but I thought I'd share.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  Leo Schordje on Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:22 pm

bucknbonsai wrote:Jim, the diatomaceous earth bag specifically claims to hold 2x more water per weight than calcined clay. Im not trying to argue, just confused what product would be better. The NAPA is way easier to find and is cheaper.

I lost my notes where I wrote it down, what is the Napa part number for the diatomaceous earth they sell as 'Oil Dry' ?

Thanks

I had been using diatomaceous earth back when Maidenwell had a USA distributor. I used it in part as an additive to orchid potting mixes. I think it is an excellent product in its own right. Behaves a little different than Turface, my favorite inorganic mix is roughly equal parts of Diatomaceous earth, Turface, crushed granite, with roughly 1/4 part horticultural charcol. I am less happy with mixes made with only one of the components, but the mix seems pretty good.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  augustine on Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:47 pm

I bought turface about a month ago at my local Farm Supply store and (for the first time) they asked me if I wanted MVP or "Quick Dry." I bought the MVP as usual.

However somewhere on the forums it was mentioned that the "Quick Dry" product was very fine. So you may want to stay away from the Quick Dry.

Best,

Augustine
central MD 7a

PS - FYI, check the local Farm Supply stores for your soil supplies. I have 2 in the area and they offer turface, Dry Stall, pine fines and chicken grit. Chicken grit normally comes in 3 sizes, the starter for chicks, the grower-medium size and the developer which is large. For grit make sure the product is 100% granite and doesn't contain oyster shells.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  lordy on Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:11 am

drgonzo wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:
It's possible that All sport pro is simply John Deere's name for Pro League, but that is really confusing. I don't understand why they can't carry it under one name.
Just like Cains is not a pickle name, its a brand name owned by Gedney foods.
-Jay
Uhh...who? What? Gonzo, you must be talking New York or something. Cains? Gedney?? Are those deciduous or evergreen coniferous?

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  KennedyMarx on Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:06 am

Leo Schordje wrote:
bucknbonsai wrote:Jim, the diatomaceous earth bag specifically claims to hold 2x more water per weight than calcined clay. Im not trying to argue, just confused what product would be better. The NAPA is way easier to find and is cheaper.

I lost my notes where I wrote it down, what is the Napa part number for the diatomaceous earth they sell as 'Oil Dry' ?

Thanks

I had been using diatomaceous earth back when Maidenwell had a USA distributor. I used it in part as an additive to orchid potting mixes. I think it is an excellent product in its own right. Behaves a little different than Turface, my favorite inorganic mix is roughly equal parts of Diatomaceous earth, Turface, crushed granite, with roughly 1/4 part horticultural charcol. I am less happy with mixes made with only one of the components, but the mix seems pretty good.

The NAPA diatomaceous earth is product #8822. I've been mixing equal parts of it, granite poultry grit, and Diamond Pro brand calcined clay for my prebonsai. Some I've added some pine bark fines into the mix for a little more water retention. I just got done sifting and mixing some last night and took a couple pictures for reference purposes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/charleswillis/sets/72157632853407544/with/8505492097/

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  PeacefulAres on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:46 am

KennedyMarx wrote:
Leo Schordje wrote:
bucknbonsai wrote:Jim, the diatomaceous earth bag specifically claims to hold 2x more water per weight than calcined clay. Im not trying to argue, just confused what product would be better. The NAPA is way easier to find and is cheaper.

I lost my notes where I wrote it down, what is the Napa part number for the diatomaceous earth they sell as 'Oil Dry' ?

Thanks

I had been using diatomaceous earth back when Maidenwell had a USA distributor. I used it in part as an additive to orchid potting mixes. I think it is an excellent product in its own right. Behaves a little different than Turface, my favorite inorganic mix is roughly equal parts of Diatomaceous earth, Turface, crushed granite, with roughly 1/4 part horticultural charcol. I am less happy with mixes made with only one of the components, but the mix seems pretty good.

The NAPA diatomaceous earth is product #8822. I've been mixing equal parts of it, granite poultry grit, and Diamond Pro brand calcined clay for my prebonsai. Some I've added some pine bark fines into the mix for a little more water retention. I just got done sifting and mixing some last night and took a couple pictures for reference purposes:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/charleswillis/sets/72157632853407544/with/8505492097/

No offense, but what is the point of that mix?

The floor dry and calcined clay serve the same function. Why mix the two of them in the same substrate? And why add bark fines back in for more water retention when you could just drop the grit? It won't effect the drainage, and it will increase the water retention without adding an organic element that will break down much faster.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  AdamDunham on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:56 am


No offense, but what is the point of that mix?

The floor dry and calcined clay serve the same function. Why mix the two of them in the same substrate? And why add bark fines back in for more water retention when you could just drop the grit? It won't effect the drainage, and it will increase the water retention without adding an organic element that will break down much faster.[/quote]

Maybe it's a mix that he thinks/does work well in his own climate

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  PeacefulAres on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:10 am



That's why I'm asking. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, so I'd like to hear his thought process.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  AdamDunham on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:21 am



Well, maybe I am just hinting at the fact that if you suggest somebody's mix is faulty, you could pm him first privately ;)

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  PeacefulAres on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:50 am

My intent wasn't to insult him. Anyway, you're being awfully defensive, considering I wasn't even replying to you. If he was offended by what I said, I'll apologize, but I don't think that anybody needs a bodyguard.


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Re: Turface confusion

Post  AdamDunham on Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:18 am



Just saying to be respectful of all parties. Plus he didn't ask for your criticism. Just seems weird that on a thread that you asked for help on a soil related question that you are now criticizing somebody for their mix lol. Seems harsh for a guy with only 11 posts on here.

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Re: Turface confusion

Post  PeacefulAres on Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:47 am

You're interpreting things in completely the wrong way. I was just curious about why he chose to use those soil components. I don't see how I was being disrespectful either; it's not like I said anything bad about his mix, it just didn't make sense to me.



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Re: Turface confusion

Post  JimLewis on Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:35 pm

Now, now children . . .

I could do it for you, but it would be nice (for all concerned) if you want back and edited all those posts and removed the snide quoted sections. You're using bandwidth and hurting our eyeballs.


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Re: Turface confusion

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