My Broom Celtis

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My Broom Celtis

Post  Andre Beaurain on Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:42 pm





Here is my broom:   Celtis africana  White Stinkwood
                           
                            Origin:      Seedling 1995
                           
                            Style:       Broom
                            Method:  Clip and grow
                            Pot:         Eastern ?


What do ya think?


Last edited by Andre Beaurain on Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  jrodriguez on Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:52 pm

[quote="Andre Beaurain"]Very Nice Jrodriguez.

I forgot to thank Rob for this tread. well done.

Here is my broom: Celtis africana White Stinkwood
Catogory: Bonsai
Origin: Seedling 1995
Form: Tree
Style: Broom
Method: Clip and grow
Pot: ? o shit.



Andre,

Nice tree. If possible, you might air layer the tree, as displayed by the red line. Just a thought:


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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Andre Beaurain on Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:10 pm

Jrodrigues, thank you and I mean this in the nicest possible way.. but why should I airlayer it, you think the root is ugly?
Does anybody else think that I should do this?

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Gary Swiech on Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:09 pm

Yes. I think an air layer should be preformed right where the Yellow line. The tree's nebari has that root that way too large.

An air layer would give you a 25% angle going into the ground and flat. You can do that with an air layer.

It would look much better.

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  reddog on Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:14 pm

Andre Beaurain wrote: but why should I airlayer it, you think the root is ugly?
Does anybody else think that I should do this?
Ramification is nice on top. However, the big straight root in front needs to either be put in back or layer this tree. In my humble opinion the transition on the left main branch too abrupt and does not look natural. Perhaps this may work its way in the future. Nice work on top though!

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  jrodriguez on Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:19 pm

[quote="Andre Beaurain"]To give you an idea of my vision, please see below:


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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Andre Beaurain on Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:11 pm

Dear Jrodreguez,


Thank you for the virtual, and your idea probably does improve my tree... but what is the reason for you to suggest it, do you think the root is distracting? Do you think the root is to big?

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Andre Beaurain on Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:15 pm

O Gary I only saw your comment now. So the root IS to big. What if I sink it more into the ground.... will that help?

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  jrodriguez on Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:21 pm

To answer you question, it's just a matter of proportions. The roots are way too young looking for an old looking top. Celtis air layer well. With proper care, your tree can be world class. You have to give the tree the opportunity to be great. A new set of roots will improve this tree 100 fold. A bigger/wider flare in not always a synonymous with age and character. In this case, it makes the whole composition look young.

Kind regards,

Jose Luis

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Oliver Muscio on Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:00 pm

I also find the large root slanting to the right to be distracting. It almost appears to be a continuation of the trunk, and it tends to lead my eye down rather than up.
Oliver

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Andre Beaurain on Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:02 pm

It also has the same thick root at the back, will take a photo tomorrow, dark outside now.

dont you guys think the trunk will look to short?



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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Mr Miyagi on Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:17 pm

The large root doesn’t bother me that much. Planted a little deeper would do the job for me. I am not a fan of air layers. I think it take character and uniqueness away from a tree. If it bothers you too much, you could always make a dead feature from it.



I think the two small roots at the back should be removed (red) and maybe a possible change of angle (green)??
But all in all I think it looks very nice indeed.


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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Sakaki on Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:18 am

Andre Beaurain wrote:No seriously. I was joking, but why should I airlayer it, you think the root is ugly?
Does anybody else think that I should do this?

Yes! ThumbsUp
Or do you have alternate front?

Taner

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Guest on Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:05 am

[quote="Mr Miyagi"]The large root doesn’t bother me that much. Planted a little deeper would do the job for me. I am not a fan of air layers. I think it take character and uniqueness away from a tree. If it bothers you too much, you could always make a dead feature from it.





This is nice! ThumbsUp ...If done convincingly It would give so much character to the tree.


regards,
jun Smile

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Andre Beaurain on Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:54 am

Yes yes yes

Thank you Mr Miyagi, that is awesome, and a much better idea!!! There was no way that I would have sacrificed this trees roots, and your idea is just a lovely compromize.

Thanks Jun I trust your taste completely!!

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Guest on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:43 am

Hi Andre

I like your tree very much...and like everybody else, do I think the tree can become much better if something is done to the roots. ( it also have a problem on the backside, you say)
What you decide is a matter of personal taste, and it is your tree Smile.

It is said that this specie is easily layered, so this problem shold not stop you from deciding this option.

On this elegant tree, would I decide for the layering, as it will give a fine trained classic tree, that can be a showstopper in the future.

The other option would I only use, if the the specie would not easily root from layering....I also think, this option is better for a slightly more rough tree, with no other options.

Every time it is possible to keep a classic refined style, will I do what I can to keep it ....There are so many more trees out there ( yamadori) who need something else done to them...They are also worth looking at, no doubt about that.....but if you have this rare option, dont blow it.

Kind regards Yvonne IMHO Smile

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Andre Beaurain on Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:28 pm

Yvonne I hate you.... now I've got to rethink this AGAIN. Your reasoning make sense.

Celtis africana does layer very easily. So that wont be a problem.

Do you also think that the trunk is long enough for that, I still think the tree will look to short,
maybe its because I'm use to the height it is?

Anyway, I will still take a photo of the back, it has the same thickness root aswell. Its pouring down with rain outside......its going to be a long tipical Cape Winter rain..........soft and continious.....so maybe tomorrow I will photograph it.

Love and light

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Guest on Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:48 pm

Hi Andre

Some kinds of hate, I just love Smile

"They" say, the lowest branch should begin 1/3 up the trunk of the intire tree, so no problem.
Have a very nice rainy day.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  jrodriguez on Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:59 pm

Mr Miyagi wrote:The large root doesn’t bother me that much. Planted a little deeper would do the job for me. I am not a fan of air layers. I think it take character and uniqueness away from a tree. If it bothers you too much, you could always make a dead feature from it.



I think the two small roots at the back should be removed (red) and maybe a possible change of angle (green)??
But all in all I think it looks very nice indeed.


Dead features on Celtis.....not the best option. Wood rots easily, creating further health issues down the line. The top features a serene quality that could only benefit with a new set of roots. This option will really bring out the best in the tree.

Just the fact that people have suggested carving the bottom supports the idea that there is a problem in the base of the tree that needs to be addressed. Again, we only give suggestions. In the end, it is your tree and you should make the decisions.

Regards,

Jose Luis

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Gary Swiech on Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:34 pm

Thank you Mr Miyagi, that is awesome, and a much better idea!!! There was no way that I would have sacrificed this trees roots, and your idea is just a lovely compromise.

Thanks Jun I trust your taste completely!!

It needs an air-layer.




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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Fore on Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:27 pm

Gary Swiech wrote:
Thank you Mr Miyagi, that is awesome, and a much better idea!!! There was no way that I would have sacrificed this trees roots, and your idea is just a lovely compromise.

Thanks Jun I trust your taste completely!!

It needs an air-layer.

I agree. Very nice otherwise Wink




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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Mr Miyagi on Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:29 pm

In my humble opinion with an air layer you would be taking the tree down the path of unique conformity and destroy the naturalistic essence. Going down that route and picking branches with the first at 1/3 of the way up and so on is just not to my taste as I find it too generic. Dead wood can easily be preserved with the right care and attention. Rather than discard it, make it into a point of interest. Trees in nature also often have this problem but still maintain their beauty. Maybe my virtual was a bit harsh but something slightly more subtle might be appropriate. What would a master like Walter Pall do?

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  jrodriguez on Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:25 pm

Mr Miyagi wrote:In my humble opinion with an air layer you would be taking the tree down the path of unique conformity and destroy the naturalistic essence. Going down that route and picking branches with the first at 1/3 of the way up and so on is just not to my taste as I find it too generic. Dead wood can easily be preserved with the right care and attention. Rather than discard it, make it into a point of interest. Trees in nature also often have this problem but still maintain their beauty. Maybe my virtual was a bit harsh but something slightly more subtle might be appropriate. What would a master like Walter Pall do?

Naturalistic essence? Does this mean doing nothing? It is just a matter of proportions. As is, the roots are NOT in proportion with the upper portion. An air layer offers a simple solution to a minor problem that reflects a mayor defect on the total design. Even in your so called naturalistic approach, you agree that the lower portion needs attention. Adding dead wood and hollows only makes the defect a lot more visible; it does not correct it.

So I ask, does wiring the tree also eliminate the naturalistic essence? I think not. Wiring, directional pruning, layering, grow and cut, and choosing the right container are all techniques that enable us to achieve a design. In this case, the top of the tree offers the image of an old giant. Unfortunately, the elongated roots give the tree the appearance of being young. They eliminate the serene/quiet feeling image of the top.

As far as what will Walter Pall do, only he can answer the question. Perhaps he might choose to offer his opinion. The more the better!!!

Warm regards,

Jose Luis

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  Mr Miyagi on Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:31 pm

jrodriguez wrote:
Mr Miyagi wrote:In my humble opinion with an air layer you would be taking the tree down the path of unique conformity and destroy the naturalistic essence. Going down that route and picking branches with the first at 1/3 of the way up and so on is just not to my taste as I find it too generic. Dead wood can easily be preserved with the right care and attention. Rather than discard it, make it into a point of interest. Trees in nature also often have this problem but still maintain their beauty. Maybe my virtual was a bit harsh but something slightly more subtle might be appropriate. What would a master like Walter Pall do?

Naturalistic essence? Does this mean doing nothing? It is just a matter of proportions. As is, the roots are NOT in proportion with the upper portion. An air layer offers a simple solution to a minor problem that reflects a mayor defect on the total design. Even in your so called naturalistic approach, you agree that the lower portion needs attention. Adding dead wood and hollows only makes the defect a lot more visible; it does not correct it.

So I ask, does wiring the tree also eliminate the naturalistic essence? I think not. Wiring, directional pruning, layering, grow and cut, and choosing the right container are all techniques that enable us to achieve a design. In this case, the top of the tree offers the image of an old giant. Unfortunately, the elongated roots give the tree the appearance of being young. They eliminate the serene/quiet feeling image of the top.

As far as what will Walter Pall do, only he can answer the question. Perhaps he might choose to offer his opinion. The more the better!!!

Warm regards,

Jose Luis

I see your point and I agree the root needs attention but make’s the tree look no more juvenile than this root makes this old oak look juvenile.



I disagree that a dead area would make the defect more visible. On the contrary I believe it would eliminate the defect and create a good point of interest. I don’t believe wiring stops the natural essence any more than reducing leaf size as it creates the movement that large old trees gain through size. If we all used air layers to correct deficiencies in difficult material, surely all our trees would look the same at ground level. I’m not saying this is right, just personal preference. I just prefer to work with what Mother Nature has given the tree. Would love to see it from some more angles though.

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Re: My Broom Celtis

Post  jrodriguez on Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:30 pm

Mr Miyagi wrote:
jrodriguez wrote:
Mr Miyagi wrote:In my humble opinion with an air layer you would be taking the tree down the path of unique conformity and destroy the naturalistic essence. Going down that route and picking branches with the first at 1/3 of the way up and so on is just not to my taste as I find it too generic. Dead wood can easily be preserved with the right care and attention. Rather than discard it, make it into a point of interest. Trees in nature also often have this problem but still maintain their beauty. Maybe my virtual was a bit harsh but something slightly more subtle might be appropriate. What would a master like Walter Pall do?

Naturalistic essence? Does this mean doing nothing? It is just a matter of proportions. As is, the roots are NOT in proportion with the upper portion. An air layer offers a simple solution to a minor problem that reflects a mayor defect on the total design. Even in your so called naturalistic approach, you agree that the lower portion needs attention. Adding dead wood and hollows only makes the defect a lot more visible; it does not correct it.

So I ask, does wiring the tree also eliminate the naturalistic essence? I think not. Wiring, directional pruning, layering, grow and cut, and choosing the right container are all techniques that enable us to achieve a design. In this case, the top of the tree offers the image of an old giant. Unfortunately, the elongated roots give the tree the appearance of being young. They eliminate the serene/quiet feeling image of the top.

As far as what will Walter Pall do, only he can answer the question. Perhaps he might choose to offer his opinion. The more the better!!!

Warm regards,

Jose Luis

I see your point and I agree the root needs attention but make’s the tree look no more juvenile than this root makes this old oak look juvenile.

[/url

No, if that oak were a bonsai, I would eliminate the left hanging root to create more stability. Also, the oak roots are totally different from the ones displayed by the celtis, which take all the visual weight of the tree and one is almost as thick as the trunk. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Just because nature created something, it does not mean that it is visually appealing.

[url=https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=436&u=13936737]


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