OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

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OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  trantanhung_nt on Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:08 am

Hello My Friends - Members IBC Forum ,
Invite you to see and feel about the following images ...
1. Water on the surface ( of the natural stone ) :

2. A little Baby - Oil on stone surface :

3. After taking the OIL on the surface ( of the oil- Stone ) continue to water + stone ...

( Stone will not react with water ... as at image No 1 ... Here , I agree with the comments of Mr. Chris ... )
Thank you very much , the time and the comments of Mr. Chris , Norma and Yvonne .
Regards ,
Hưng - Trần .

trantanhung_nt
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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  Guest on Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:36 am

Hi Trantanhung

Thank you very much for this "easy to see" teaching lesson...I can be a good help for many people Smile

Kind regards yvonne

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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  trantanhung_nt on Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:39 pm

Thanks Yvonne .
For easy to see and feel ... I send continue 2 images following ...
_ Image No 4 .
( ... Clean all the OIL on this stone , and then dried it in the sun ... and taking the photo ... : )

_ Image No 5 .
( If this stone was really dry clean ... I ' ll see it like natural stone surface and it will react with water ... look like natural stone + water in image No 1 ... : )

Thank you very much your time to feel and sharing opinion ...
Regards ,
Hưng - Trần .

trantanhung_nt
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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  Guest on Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:53 pm

Hi Trantanhung

Clever ...It looks a lot like, what I have tried to explain/say....thanks for the photos.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  Chris Cochrane on Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:42 pm

Hi Hung Tran... Thanks for your very excellent photos, generous sharing & obvious search for the truth in word and photo. Anything I have learned of stone appreciation is tentative & open for revision. Every enthusiast who is serious sees more to learn ahead.

At 7:27 a.m., it dawned (full sun-up) on a clear, cool day in Richmond VA. I happened to look outside at ~8:20 a.m. and noted three stones on the bannister next to steps in our back yard. One stone had surface water glistening on three-quarters of its surface & was otherwise wet, where not sparkling with wetness. Another stone with a flat top had water reflecting over half its surface. The third stone was only slightly damp in a small corner. If I had not begun weather-aging each, they would have each been dry on their surface. When will your stone start to obtain a moisture retentive skin? Is it too late, already, to retain stone translucence & moisture retention. Is it too late for stones #2 through #9 in your previous thread "Small Black Basalt collection..."?

We disagree on removing oil. Stone friends who are chemists inform me it is chemically feasible. They also note that wetting agents affect stones (most are very porous when clean) in various ways. Their conversation quickly rose above my competance regarding the efficacy, soluability & toxicity of wetting agents (you might check toxicity of baby/mineral oil!), though they agreed on a particular humectant at a particular molecular weight possibly achieving an effect desired for scholar's rocks. In searching their recommendation, I learned that it was also a solvent-- a substance that dissolves material chemically resulting in a solution. I wouldn't recommend its properties as reversible.

Once oil has been applied, the sheen it creates can only be regained by addition of a wetting agent. Stones intended for suiseki appreciation have been ruined by oiling. Many are now brown where they once were not. Clear oil clings & collects debris inside stones. Clear oil affects color hues as well as depth/saturation and spreads within stones from where it was first applied.

Nylon is a petroleum product & oils stones, too-- especially if rubbed for hours, as recommended by Sean's teacher. It seems a more aggressive but cleaner alternative to hand-rubbing, which is recommended by many I admire for hard, finely grained stones such as Kamuikotan-ishi, which holds a sheen with rubbing using a dry cloth.

If browsers take away from this thread that stones can be washed after multiple oilings &, later, weathered to create a translucent, water retentive skin, I think it is an incomplete & probably inaccurate lesson. Argument to the contrary is welcomed by me. Potential suiseki are abused in Japan as well as on IBC in the effort to shorten aging. For wet-aging, is there a short cut? Dry aging can arguably be accomplished quickly, but the hard, finely-grained stones trained by wet-aging take longest to create a water retentive skin. Is it worth the wait?

The discussion , here and on recent threads is so similar to two previous threads (with similar respondents). I would recommend reading the other threads-- especially for browsers new to the forum:
Choose wet-aging for preparation of stone to be displayed in a suiban. A dry-aged stone is never appropriate for suiseki display in a suiban. In suiseki appreciation, an artificially-wetted stone is not appropriate for a stone in a suiban even if it is only "burnished." Stones are either wet-aged or dry aged; do not apply both techniques to a stone. With maturity, both wet & dry aged stones can be maintained with dusting using a clean dry cloth.


Last edited by Chris Cochrane on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:50 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  Guest on Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:43 am

Hi Trantanhung

I have a question.....how exacly do you remove the oil from the stones....and what kind of oil are you using to begin with.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  trantanhung_nt on Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:45 am

Hello Yvonne ,
OIL can peel ( permeability and surface cleaning ) out of the stone for material composed ( material formed ) of
this rock ... BUT CAN NOT ... for some other stone material composition ...
So we need to learn about the material composition ( material formed ) of the rockS ... along with the effect of each type of OIL ... on each stone material composition ...
( Sorry ! my English language is very poor ... you please . )
Thank you your question time .
Regards ,
Hưng - Trần .

trantanhung_nt
Member


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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  Guest on Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:50 am

Hi Trantanhung

How do YOU remove oil from a hard stone?

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  trantanhung_nt on Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:53 am

Hello Yvonne ,
I can explain to you :
_ Picture number 1 : is a natural stone + water .
_ Picture 2 : is a natural stone + OIL .
_ Picture 3 : is a stone surface cleaning OIL + water .
_ Picture 4 : is a stone completely clean oil on the surface .
_ Picture 5 : is the effect of water with rock surface is completely clean oil on the surface .
In this hard stone ( it is tightly structured and do not have holes ) , OIL is NOT absorbed into the stone ( oil only present on the surface ) , we can completely clean the surface easily ( put stone under running water and rubbing , wiping the stone with a soft cloth coton )
Thanks for your time share .
Regards ,
Hưng - Trần .

trantanhung_nt
Member


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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  Guest on Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:07 pm

Hi Trantanhung

With the light oil I have tried to use on hard stone, do I have exacly the same experience.... I just prefer to place the slightly oiled ( stone oiled in a thin oil, and right after removed with a cottoncloth) hard stone in the garden, and it will it go back to what it was...same collor, same way to hold water ( I have just checked).

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  vlado on Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:50 pm

Dear friends
In my opinion, only biseki stones can be oiled or altered,polished etc. Landscape - natural scenery stones must not be oiled or altered.
Oiled stones will not never reach a natural patina which is one of criterium for a realy suiseki.
Of course if you are satisfied with your stones, I have no objection to your work.

Have a nice stones.
vlado

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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  Guest on Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:06 pm

vlado wrote:Dear friends
In my opinion, only biseki stones can be oiled or altered,polished etc. Landscape - natural scenery stones must not be oiled or altered.
Oiled stones will not never reach a natural patina which is one of criterium for a realy suiseki.
Of course if you are satisfied with your stones, I have no objection to your work.

Have a nice stones.
vlado

I also find natural scenery stones is best seen natural.....if the stone is sculptural, is patina a nice thing.....to me can a natural scenery stone wery well be sculptural too...doha or danseki.....Patina can in my opinion be nice on theese stones...but it always depends on the stone.

Some years ago, I bought a nice Scenerystone in China.....a black/dark gray stone, that take sheen very quikly......it has become too glossy for my taste now, and from next spring have I decided to take the stone in the garden...I expect a stay outside will degloss the stone....Thereafter will I have to be more carefull with the duster.

I dont have a stone, I would oil regular, so I can actully not really speak in this matter...

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  trantanhung_nt on Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:52 pm

Hello Yvonne ,
Mr. Chris and Vlado ,
Thanks to the experience and practice of the accuracy of Mr. Chris , Yvonne and Mr. Vlado shared .
Sincerely ,
Hưng - Trần .

trantanhung_nt
Member


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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  kdurais on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:25 pm

Chris,
I am on your side on the issue of oiling stones. The benefit is short-lived. And the damage extensive, sometimes irreversible even.
Having said that, what many on the forum, who beg to differ with you on the question of the right way to bring out the 'sheen', seem to be asking is this - how valid, or how effective to be more precise, is your one-size-fits-all approach (be it wet-ageing or dry) to bring out natural translucence in stones (stones that are very different from each other in their porosity, density, material composition and so on.) What is the science behind it? A water retentive skin, if there is such a thing, comes about how?

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Re: OIL or no OIL , WATER or no WATER ...??? _ UP to YOU .

Post  Guest on Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:00 am

I dont think I was clear enough, when I told about the chinese stone in my last reply...
This was not about a oiled stone, but too much sheen.

I have no reason to belive it came oiled from China, and I never gave it any....the stone just reaced wery fast to sheen, even a dry finger hard against the stone would give sheen. After some years have gone, do I wish to desheen the stone, by letting it erode a season exposed to sun and rain...if one year is not enough, will it stay longer......after that will I be carefull when dusting, and only allow a little sheen.

So this was not about oil, but only sheen, as Kdurais asked about.

I have some nice examples with diffrent surfaces and porosity, and thoughts behind....not one word about oil.....
Chris has been asked, and I will ofcourse not interfeer now.

Kind regards yvonne

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