Re: how i see personal forum progression

[Guest]

...so we are learning through eBonsai.

Good point... however... this forum should really only be used as a bonus brain to the development of your knowledge and understanding of principles of creating and maintaining your bonsai. I fear that for some, Forums become their focus on bonsai. The best way to learn is to do it for real, and do it with like minded people. Many years back I had such a hunger to learn, I found the best Sensei I could in the UK (Dan Barton) and worked with him for as long as I could. One (pre-web) weekend with Dan and I would have learned more than spending over 100 hours on-line.

I also fear that in the West we are too eager to to get to the finishing line, Bonsai is not a 100 metre sprint it is a Marathon.

[Russell Coker]

The time you spend on Ebonsai should be a fraction of the time you spend on Real Bonsai

True, but some of us don't have enough tree to keep us that busy. Not yet ready to be worked on at least...so we are learning through eBonsai.

While this is true, it is just an excuse. Some (like me) are just plain chatty actually. LOL

Hey, I figured you'd be cruising the thash piles and knocking on doors!

[Poink88]

Many years back I had such a hunger to learn, I found the best Sensei I could in the UK (Dan Barton) and worked with him for as long as I could. One (pre-web) weekend with Dan and I would have learned more than spending over 100 hours on-line.

We made do with what we have. Some of us just don't have access to same teacher or the resources (money, time, etc.) to do so. We all learn differently as well...I can learn from pictures (esp progression) others can't.

...we are too eager to to get to the finishing line, Bonsai is not a 100 metre sprint it is a Marathon.

Agreed it is a marathon, but to ME, it is still a race and I want to finish as fast as possible (not 100 meter dash speed mind you) and there is nothing wrong with that. If others want to take a leisurely walk, that is fine too!

On both counts...we do what works for us and what we (I hope) enjoy. We will make mistakes and learn along the way and that is part of the journey.

[Poink88]

Hey, I figured you'd be cruising the thash piles and knocking on doors!

No need to do that, Craigslist is the bomb!!!

[JimLewis]

Agreed it is a marathon, but to ME, it is still a race and I want to finish as fast as possible (not 100 meter dash speed mind you) and there is nothing wrong with that.

No, but the proof will be in the pudding, however long or short it takes to make it.

[leatherback]

No, but the proof will be in the pudding, however long or short it takes to make it.

Juniperus Pudding? Wouldn't that taste a bit funny?

[Poink88]

No, but the proof will be in the pudding, however long or short it takes to make it.

Yep! That part I cannot change much. My artistic talent is limited (compared to most I see here) and I can only learn so much on that arena. I may never bring the best out of mine ...but I will darn try.

[Hans van Meer.]

No, but the proof will be in the pudding, however long or short it takes to make it.

Juniperus Pudding? Wouldn't that taste a bit funny?

Think Dutch Gin (Jenever) in a pudding!!!! Jenever Pudding brulee, Brilliant idea!!!!

Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

[Velodog2]

No, but the proof will be in the pudding, however long or short it takes to make it.

Juniperus Pudding? Wouldn't that taste a bit funny?

Like gin I'm thinking? Hoping?

[leatherback]

No, but the proof will be in the pudding, however long or short it takes to make it.

Juniperus Pudding? Wouldn't that taste a bit funny?

Like gin I'm thinking? Hoping?

Hm.. One could make schnaps from a lot of things. Not just Junipers. Was planning on making it of plums this year. Forgot and now they have fallen ont he ground; Half my garden smells like a brewery now, with fermenting fruit underneath our well-aged plum tree.

About this topic...

I work at a university. In our university very little lecturing is done. Rather, groups of students are given a problem to solve. These subjects always have certain problems that lead the students to learn specific components of their field. Sometimes it is forces, sometimes it is electrics. In other cases it may be control engineering. Say, a first year mechanical engineering task could be: Create a piece of equipment that allows a crate of beer to be used as source for a beer tap. The lecturer and some assistent then are there to answer questions. Rather than to tell the students what to learn, they come to the staff and ask for informations. Naturally, for these subjects the staff knows which questions are uniform, and which are ad hoc. For the standard questions, a series of lectures is available (If you are going to ask them to design a bidge, you know they need math/physics of static structures). However, quite often a group will come up with a question that puts the staff at the uneasy position that they don't know the exact answer. Then it is time for both sides to look for the answer.

This takes a lot of self-confidence of particularly our senior staff, as it is easy to take these questions, and the unability to formulate an answer as an indication of incompetence. Therefor all our students are also trained in formulating questions in a way that they are never insulting, insinuating, but respectfull content-based. In the end, the solution found by students may be comepletely different from current standards and practice. This makes it dificult to judge for the staff: If it works, how can it be wrong? It shows us every day again that some of the students are really clever, creative and all of them have an out of the box mentality that some would consider naive. However, the solution they find, often work really well. Our staff is therefor very reluctant to ever say that something is wrong. Rather, they give input and advice, and let the students run with the ideas & input given.

This is also how I see the forum; A place where I can go. Meet some people who have an interest similar to mine. Some have a lot of experience. Some less. But every idea is valuable. It is then up to me to decide which grains to use, and which not. And even if I have a run-in on some topic with one of the other boarders, I will not go and ignore these posts. Just that we have a different opinion does not make the other person better or worse at the subject matter. In the end it is me who is responsible for my trees. Not the person giving input. Therefor it is my decision to accept or reject someone advice. And yes. I will disagree with a person 40 years in Bonsai over the idea of someone who has just started.
Bonsai is art. Therefor one could argue there is no right or wrong. Whether acertain branch should stay or go, is up to the taste of the owner. THat a tree will never win any competition because of crossed roots, branches with only needles at the end etc. does not make a tree less interesting to the owner. And as for technical info: How a tree responds is so dependent on local climate, the soil it is in and the health of the tree, that even there a lot of dispute is possible when on an international forum.

Taking this whole long story, one could say: I am hear to gouge opinion, and then make up my own mind about which steps I like to take. Likewise, I will give my opinion, and try to clearly state which I think a certain path of action would work.

[marcus watts]

Great Discussion,
and a few real gems of wisdom are tucked in the last 3 pages too (Tony, well said - hands on is essential, e bonsai is for when it is too dark to see)

Tiny bit of advice that will help your real trees Dario - a meaningfull progression that has actually improved a bonsai shows increased budding (and back budding), better foliage density, improved ramification and a steady but noticable decrease in wire on the tree ....this a progression towards the final goal. I love looking at afternoon styling session pictures too, (and I enjoy putting a few up now and again) but there is often only a few hours work from start to finish so look at them as stage one work - progression is when the wires come off and the tree stays where you want it........a goal virtually everyone here is still aiming for with most of our trees.

While language can make a 'teaching or advising' thread difficult a good photo sequence showing start, method used and final outcome is within everyones ability if they have something to show or share. I still say posts with just a tree saying "behold what i have done" are just eye candy and we all like a little bit of that - as others have observed these threads are actually just adverts cleverly slipped in under the radar for commercial services. Luckily the forum is so well moderated that the balance is good.

If I dont comment on peoples threads asking for help, advice etc it will often be because the species is not one I can help with, or the correct help has already been given....It is fairly pointless to just post for the sake of it saying what has been said before....thats like wasting air .

As a worldwide group the forum is essential to run alongside any local club you may have. A club has a very small talent pool - often 1 to 5 people with experience are the core of the club. Their experience is often at a similar stage as they have worked together a while too, so the maximum level the club can get to is capped by the few. While clubs bring in outside talent this may be once or twice a year while the IBC is available to see and learn from 24/7 - 365.

cheers Marcus

[Guest]

One overriding aspect to bonsai is this... there is NO SUBSTITUTE to standing in front of an actual awe inspiring bonsai... no book, website, facebook image comes close.

This is why I urge everyone who love bonsai to get to the biggest and best show you possibly can. I have not been able to afford the time or the cash to get to Japan and the BIG shows there and this is a sword hanging over me. It is on my list of '100 hundred things to do before I die'

[Hans van Meer.]

One overriding aspect to bonsai is this... there is NO SUBSTITUTE to standing in front of an actual awe inspiring bonsai... no book, website, facebook image comes close.

Well said Tony! And might I ad that there is NO SUBSTITUTE to actually working on a tree! No matter how much technical info you have stacked in one half off your brain, it is actually the other half that you need to discover and train! Approach Bonsai as a form off self expression, as Art! Not just as a craft!

Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

[JimLewis]

Not just as a craft!

Hey! There's nothing wrong with crafts -- or craftsmanship. It's gotta go right along with the "artsie" bit.

[Khaimraj Seepersad]

Hans,

to meet the Art part you must have the Head, the Heart and the Hand, or The Intellect, the Emotion and the Craft.
Thus far very few even get to the design.
I can see Bonsai stirring a memory [ emotion ] but Intellect ?????????????
I leave it all as the Chinese have it ---- Garden Craft.

Plus, the pinnacle of Bonsai design often exists as just a photograph and then the tree marches on.
Later.
Khaimraj

[Hans van Meer.]

Not just as a craft!

Hey! There's nothing wrong with crafts -- or craftsmanship. It's gotta go right along with the "artsie" bit.

OOPS! I dropped the Art word, sorry! Should have known better, especially with my poor choice of words in a foreign language! Never sad or meant that there is someting wrong with a craft! I meant that you should not only focus on learning Bonsai techniques off the web as a approach to learn about Bonsai! Like Tony sad: seeing them and studying them in real live is the best way. Just like working and styling them in the flesh is the best way to lurn the craft as well as the "Artsie bit"! And yes, I do believe that there is to much focus on all kind off techniques even pros hardly ever use. And that there is sadly not much room or need for serious discussions about styling techniques and principles on most Bonsai forum! Let alone to talk about approaching Bonsai as a Art form! Is it realy that fare out of our comfort zone to talk about how we could lift our hobby, craft towards a higher plain?! I just learned from Marcus how to freeze my deadwood to make my Bonsai look better and that is amazing and just what this Forum is for! Because I am still learning every day and listen when other hobbyist, craftsman, artist or pros give advice! Bonsai as a hobbyist or Bonsai as a artists, it is all just fine by me! But I know that for some it is more than just a hobby and they might be interested? Just my thought and by no way the written truth!

Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

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