Blackpine not budding

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Re: Blackpine not budding

Post  Joe Hatfield on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:11 am

Where I work we have new and old sales men. The older guys have methods that work for them and the company is always coming up with new ways to help improve the methods. The new guys don't know any better and are willing to try anything to make it happen. Of course there are grumbles and groans when they have to implement a new method or use a strat that has been devised by stats. Everyone has to develope a method that works for them regardless of what facts, stats, or ideas are given to them. It's about having the right tools in the tool box to use when you are met with a challenging situation. Being able to implement those tools in such a way that maybe was not so spelled out thus resulting in a eureka.

My ponderosa did not produce shoots but more of clustered growth.
Upon inspection of my roots ( last week) I found a similar situation to the tree we are discussing. I'm trying out a new soil mix to remedy it. The tree shows no signs of issue (yet) 3 parts turface to 1 pumice. Any thoughts with this mix?

Joe Hatfield
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Re: Blackpine not budding

Post  fuzei on Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:39 am

abcd wrote:For lows trees , i use frequently with good results , particularly on pinus sylvestris,
anhydrous sugar ( C6 H12 O6 ) , directly assimilated by the leaves and roots, 25 gr / L water .

very interesting tidbit abcd, and applies directly to this pine problem... I returned to the IBC to ask a few questions as I knew that 'bonsai people' would have played with the concepts of direct feeding and in the process, leave a few thoughts in exchange, and this sugar spray is part of that. If you don't mind I would like to formulate a question(s) in a new thread and ask how you use this mixture.

If you have a chance, given the difference in time zones, I would appreciate a new thread started by you and would like to know, all or parts of this (and 'gut feeling' is valid, and suggested research streams are wonderful... thks):
- where you learned this, or concluded you should do this..
- when you sprayed, (is this sprayed?)
- why you felt you should or would apply, and what the results were..
- why particularly on P. sylvestris ? (I have the Belgian Blue cultivar but need a solution for a native pine)

Is this related to the gentleman in Texas down Jim Stone's way, that recommends a molasses spray for ailing plants? Jim? anyone?
with gratitude, edzard

fuzei
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Re: Blackpine not budding

Post  fuzei on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:02 am

Jim.. Very Happy a 'seki' farm?? A play on words or name or suiseki ? buried like pots to age and open the glaze?

I have visions of you hoeing rows of 'little Stone's' in the hot sun ... was there not a Bizarro cartoon to that effect? titled "Japanese Stone Garden" ? ... ah, that 'toon must be yellowed with age by now, but perhaps it can be found..
hmm, thank you, yes.. indeed, looking at the gate brought a smile while I ruminated today.. I'm reminded that horses can only nudged in directions they are hard-wired for.. I think sweet feed is called for rather than the fungicidal drench, at least for mine anyway. And thank you for asking, the one gelding is in his 30's now but behaves like he can't decide if he's 102 or '2 and studly'.

Your Texas Persimmons: this 'stasis' was the final deciding point for me to try to start a discussion (poor attempt I gather) on why and when one might choose one technique over another.. and I would also learn something if I could entice Marcus to explain his rationale by explaining part of the science side of mine..

iow's, I think this may be a tutorial eventually if Marcus would explain why he would not use the technique I suggested... Marcus... ?

And I'll explain why I chose to differ with a tried and true idea of repotting to a drier soil mix.. 'immediately'..

In essence, the difference is the stasis that Jim mentions, in that whenever a pine is completely repotted, (I have observed that) a period of 'stasis' occurs of between 3 and 8 weeks. Nothing happens, no growth. If there are candles at transplant time, as there should be, they stay the same length as they were when the tree was repotted for a few weeks or until the late summer bud break. (i guess that if people transplant in 'late summer' then this may need to be different as a question)

In 8 weeks, a worst case scenario, any new growth would not harden off enough to survive a winter that far inland. (since I am very familiar with Krefeld, Germany)

I felt that the best opportunity was to obtain growth in 1 - 3 weeks, buds emerging with the end of the natural wet cycle, that would be able to take advantage of the next natural cycle of late summer flush (of growth), and if the tree stayed in stasis, did not break bud, then would be repotted, and the tree would then think that the late summer cycle was the first spring cycle. With enough time to harden off for one cycle of candles.

it would then be treated as Marcus (and Jim) mentioned somewhere as a cutting or collected tree. (I would add the rooting hormone solution to 30% of the primary and secondary roots dabbed in little cuts and lifts of the bark.)

and, part of this consideration was whether or not the tree was transplanted wet or dry.

Here is the question:
on a scale of 0 to 5, and, 5 is wet, and -0- is dry, at what level of wetness, dampness, dryness, or moisture, is it optimal for transplanting pine?
in other words: in what stage of the watering and drying out cycle would one, or does one transplant pine in, that has the highest level of success?

0 to 5
0 is dry.. and wet is 5...

thanks for participating in a mini-survey,... edzard

fuzei
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clustered pine growth

Post  fuzei on Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:06 am

My ponderosa did not produce shoots but more of clustered growth.

Joe.. do you have a photo of 'clustered growth?
I do not understand what this means, as, I'm also currently catching up to terms.. thks edzard

fuzei
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Re: Blackpine not budding

Post  Joe Hatfield on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:42 pm



I had candles almost 3 years ago, last year I had none, this year I had none. The tree was collected 4-5 years ago kept in its 100% pumice and then this year I used the mix I mentioned earlier. I DO have whoever, clusters of new growth. As if there were tiny candles that I didn't notice sprouting all over and forming dense areas of needle growth. In the photo I tried to draw tiny red arrows pointing out all the places needle growth occurred. I have plucked the under sides of the branches and also thinned out the groups of needle clusters by half. It was confused when I could find no candles but a large amount of new needles packed together and open as if they were tiny candles.

:Puzzled: Question

Joe Hatfield
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Re: Blackpine not budding

Post  BonsaiJim on Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:06 pm

fuzei wrote:Jim.. Very Happy a 'seki' farm?? A play on words or name or suiseki ? buried like pots to age and open the glaze?

My last name is? Break down your pidgen japanese people! I used to offer up a 1-0% discount when my nursery opened to anyone that could figure it out.... then word got around to all the COB's in the club... one was dumb enough to spurt - "Hey can I get that discount if I tell you what yer name means?

Also, I kind of like this:

"Seki, a Japanese go term adopted into English, means mutual life. In its simple form, it is a sort of symbiosis where two live groups share liberties which neither of them can fill without dying. "


fuzei wrote:Your Texas Persimmons: this 'stasis' was the final deciding point for me to try to start a discussion (poor attempt I gather) on why and when one might choose one technique over another.. and I would also learn something if I could entice Marcus to explain his rationale by explaining part of the science side of mine..

I cringe when I think of all the really good collected cattle-nibbled material that may have went into the compost pile because "it never budded out"... or "I repotted it and then it never recovered." Sad thing is I've heard these exact phrases from folks that also did not know to use their thumbnails...

There was a phrase for this application of technique based on sign/symptom rather than calendar... can't remember- anyone?

As for Edzard's final question, while I've never paid that close attention ( I certainly will now) I tend to put pines off to last so in the way of idiot-savantism I have some degree of bud-break. Given the time they would probably be at least a 3 or greater....


Molasses- I've heard it- never used it- part of that organic biodynamic hooey. Really all I know is that it provides culture media for microorganisms- so why spray on plant leaves (foliar feeding- rumour or trumour?). I guess it assumes the good "bugs" (i.e., microrhyzza- are there any others we really care about?!? because otherwise why do we lean on an essentially inorganic mix?) will be ones that thrive on it?

A quick lit search- I'll try and go more in depth later...

I found a few papers re: attraction of predatory insects when it is used. One on reduction of root knot galling and nematode populations in potted tomatoes... No effect on tobacco pests... mixed bag- maybe there's a gem in the fertilizer pile for us?

How about this? http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_molasses_make_plant_blooms_bigger

I think you are referring to Garrett... I've heard him speak, never been particularly impressed although there are those in my club that think he's the second coming.

Garrett Juice (ready to spray):
1 cup compost tea
1 ounce molasses
1 ounce natural apple cider vinegar
1 ounce liquid seaweed

For Garrett Juice Plus and more fertilizer value add:
1- 2 ounces of liquid fish (fish hydrolysate) per gallon of spray.

For disease and insect control add:
¼ cup garlic tea or
¼ cup garlic/pepper tea
or 1 - 2 ounce of orange oil

For homemade fire ant killer add: 2 ounces of orange oil per gallon of Garrett Juice

Note 1: To avoid burning plant foliage, the ready-to-use solution should not have more than 2 ounces of orange oil per gallon of spray.

Note 2: We now know why the mix works so well, not only on the foliage, but also in the soil. The ingredients are a well balanced blend of nutrients and food for both beneficial fungi and bacteria.

Garrett Juice Concentrate: Mix the following: 1 gallon of compost tea or liquid humate, 1 pint liquid seaweed, 1 pint apple cider vinegar, and 1 pint molasses. To make Garrett Juice Plus add 1 pint fish hydrolysate. Use 1½ cups per gallon of water for the spray.

BonsaiJim
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Re: Blackpine not budding

Post  my nellie on Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:40 pm

I know some Italian fellow bonsaists who use glucose in order to intensify the Autumn color of maples.
They dissolve it into the irrigation water and begin to use it on their plants about one month before the maples start to change color.





my nellie
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Re: Blackpine not budding

Post  R3mco on Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:38 pm

Hi guys,

An update Smile

Unfortunately, the tree died about a week back.
It showed signs of recovery, but collapsed about 4 weeks after the repot, very slow motion.
I tried to save it misting a lot with Rhyzotonic, that kept it alive, but I probably only prolonged the death of the tree





Apparently, the root rot continued even though it was transplanted into the lava soil.




I dug some more into the core of the root system, and was pretty surprised to see the original soil was just ordinary garden center potting soil Evil or Very Mad





Some funghi even set in to make the rotting complete:





Expensive firewood, I'd say Sad

RIP 1970 † 2012

R3mco
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Re: Blackpine not budding

Post  marcus watts on Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:59 pm

hi, shame........
what you have learnt will not be wasted on future pines you may buy though. Soil and pot conditions are everything - never trust someone elses soil mix, i have some expensive trees in my 'hospital' care that friends drop round when things start going wrong. I get them out of the pot in minutes and 80% of the time find compost type soil under the trunk, or a solid ball of clay like field soil.

I have a £1000 juniper here atm that had one single surviving root circling the pot and a black soggy mass in the middle- it had been repotted into leaf mould and compost when the seller took it from the nice pot and put it in a mica pot before selling it.

chin up and see if you can find people in a club nearby as they will hopefully have sorted out soils that suit localised conditions - but a little rule to go with is akadama is a soaking wet soil ingredient so not perfect to use neat for any conifers in climates like ours

cheers Marcus

marcus watts
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Re: Blackpine not budding

Post  Guest on Tue May 19, 2015 7:10 pm

I've been spooling around in the archives here as time allows. This is a dandy!! *bump*

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Re: Blackpine not budding

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