Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

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Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  LSBonsai on Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:57 pm

This puts the "dirty secret" of the bonsai community out in plain sight. Not sure if you could even call what these culprits are doing collecting... it is simply an utter decimation of nature.

It has been run through Google Translate so is a bit sketchy, but the fundamental message of the article is clear, and the pictures are shocking.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=es&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://eltimbonsai.blogspot.com/2011/10/atpc-1-hasta-donde.html&usg=ALkJrhgl1D12wiQ6Q8oL6bJBltBAEKQWUQ

The small number of people are making us look really bad Sad

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  marcus watts on Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:27 pm

initially it left me speechless...............

but then i realised its the hobbyists who have allowed this disgusting practice to go ahead, the hobbyists have created the demand and added a stupid cash value to collected material, even worse is an even higher 'added value' if the material gets wired by someone (also charging cash !) for an over rich but under skilled customer who sees bonsai as a status symbal.

no keeper of bonsai trees would collect in this manner, within a very short space of time you learn pines and junipers need green bits and all trees need roots, these are people on the edge of the hobby who are just after the money - but the reality is - it is the people buying trees similar to these from people similar to these that are totally to blame - 100% at blame for creating the market in the first place.

wild collecting of old and sensitive mountain trees needs to be banned, or licenced - but who will police it? no-one, and not many in power will ever care.

sites like this get a fair pile of European yamadori pines, junipers etc posted - the first picture of any thread should be the written permission and / or receipt that accompany the piece of material.

well found, and well posted

marcus

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  Orion on Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:11 pm

It's totally disgusting. Unfortunately, there is always going to be an element whose primary motive is profit, so Marcus I agree with you, in part, over the demand issue. As far as I understand collecting in the United States, you have to obtain a permit to collect on public grounds. The reputable collectors and sellers of yamadori, from what I've seen, have the highest degrees of respect for the environment. That's why, over here, they can command a very high price; as I'm sure you know, it takes an incredible amount of time and skill to successfully remove material from nature.

How does collecting in the wild differ in Europe with regard to permits, etc?? I'm guessing it has got to be strict. The clowns who perpetrated what we see in those pics. have no skill, no regard for the environment, no respect for the craft we work at, and are no better than poachers. Sadly, I think these pics are just the tip of the iceberg.

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  LSBonsai on Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:47 pm

I am pretty sure taxus is a protected species in this part of Europe, which makes the situation even worse.

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  Orion on Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:59 pm

What are the penalties for this???

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  drgonzo on Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:17 pm

This problem is also very similar to one I read about the other night with the Illegal Importation of trees into the USA. There are sellers on Ebay whom I've encountered that had excellent material (a little too good) and refused to tell me where they got it. Also If a seller is caught with Illegal trees his client/sales list can be confiscated, contacted, and in many cases have their entire collection confiscated and destroyed. In one extreme instance I read about a gentleman having a whole acre of vegetation surrounding his house destroyed due to possible contamination from an Illegally imported tree being sold to him even though he had NO IDEA it entered the country Illegally.

In a lot of ways this practice is just a despicable and possibly far more devastating, Dutch elm disease springs to mind as a classic example. It behooves us all to try to find out where our trees come from when we buy them. If your tree is Illegally Immigrated and sold, you could very well loose your entire collection if it is traced back to you. Beware it HAS happened.

I've heard the "suitcase full of Satsuki's" stories too.
-Jay

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  Rob Kempinski on Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:51 pm

Ouch, there's some pure evil there. The old profit motive stikes again. Maybe we need an Occupy Bonsai movement. On second thought, never mind.

It's interesting there is a hat in one photo with a very prominent logo on it. What the heck is that doing there????? Question Question



Last edited by Rob Kempinski on Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  Rob Kempinski on Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:53 pm

Orion wrote:What are the penalties for this???

Captial it seems for the trees.

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  LSBonsai on Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:09 pm

Rob Kempinski wrote:Ouch, there's some pure evil there. The old profit motive stikes again. Maybe we need an Occupy Bonsai movement. On second thought, never mind.

It's interesting there is a hat in one photo with a very prominent logo on it. What the heck is that doing there????? Question Question


Rob, if I understand the post correctly, the author encountered those trees while out walkIng and took the pictures himself. The mI hat is for scale.

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  Rob Kempinski on Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:51 am

a2khalid wrote:
Rob Kempinski wrote:Ouch, there's some pure evil there. The old profit motive stikes again. Maybe we need an Occupy Bonsai movement. On second thought, never mind.

It's interesting there is a hat in one photo with a very prominent logo on it. What the heck is that doing there????? Question Question


Rob, if I understand the post correctly, the author encountered those trees while out walkIng and took the pictures himself. The mI hat is for scale.


I heard from Marco Invernizzi and he was the one that reported this rape of the mountain and took the photos. He had nothing to do with the act and was very repulsed by it. He encouraged the guys to post the blog in Spaanish. I think the blog poster should either delete that photo or edit it to remove the logo.

And who ever did destroy those trees needs to be held accountable.

Rob Kempinski
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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  bonsai monkey on Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:18 am

This is sickening and an outrage. I’ve heard stories before of stumps being nailed into growing boxes to give the signs of stability but this sort of rape on nature should not and cannot continue.

Yes, many of us would love to own/work on some of the yamadori that we see but not at this price. Some of this greed could well stem from the excellent Show trees that Bonsai professionals produce and can been seen as an easy way to turn a quick buck but it doesn’t make it right, not by a long chalk. If the tough import regulations from Japan now, and the exchange rate, some people may see European yamadori as a good investment but our hobby should not be all about money. Unfortunately, I can’t see any way to stop it in the short term as there seems to be the market for it Sad

I’m very careful from whom I buy from and this may mean that I get, or is preserved to be, lesser grade material but at least it will live and has not been pillaged in such a destructive way. At the end of the day I know that I can sleep at night with a clear conscience,
Regards,
Simon

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  timbonsai@gmail.com on Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:10 am

First at all, We wish to thank all the bonsai enthusiasts on this forum for giving us the opportunity to share our immense passion for the art of the 4 dimensions and to learn so much every day.

We also want to thank all the followers from all over the world of our blog (http://eltimbonsai.blogspot.com) and we are please to announce you all that our post about spanish yamadori is the most clicked ever. Our blog is just a little more than a month old but it got already more than 20.000 contacts.

The members of the Tim (spanish phonetic translation of team) are enthusiasts of bonsai whose main aim is to reach the highest possible knowledge in the art of Bonsai.
The goal of our blog is to show to the bonsai world our visions and our technical skills and modest knowledge to bonsai friends in Spain, and now it seemsino many other countries.

We are known as very straightforward kind of people. We always say what we honestly think and it does?t bother us if our opinions are shared or unwelcome.
We are very focused on spanish yamadori. In recent times we explored a lots of areas on the mountain of Spain where we have seen many violations of what we may consider the common sense and respect of nature. So we use our blog to speak up and make people aware in Spain, and all over the world, what is going on on our mountains, hoping that things like that may not to be seen anywhere else.

Of course in our blog we cover many different subjects and inputs from all of you are always welcome. We want to make people think and encourage them to keep doing the best they can for their trees and the art of Bonsai.

One of the reasons why we decided to post these few lines is to clarify to you all the the reason why Marco Invernizzi's red hat is pictured right next one of the victim of the yamadori banditos. Marco took the picture himself and we all together decide to let anyone knows that this is the way some people are mistreating nature in order to make some quick bucks. Marco is supporting our expose' agaist the wrong turn that certain bonsai people are taking in Europe and USA.
We have been working with him twice a year for quite some time now so we often have time to talk about this important issues
We want to take this chance to thank Marco Invernizzi for his constant support friendship. He means a lot all os us.

thank's

eltim

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  buddhamonk on Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:00 am

Same thing is happening in the US. Not just in Europe or Asia

This guy in Oregon uses live juniper deadwood to make furniture

http://www.redwoodpatio.com/



we're talking thousands of them

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  will baddeley on Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:52 am

Sad sad proof of the greed and disrespect for nature that some people have. I have no doubt that this is rife all across Europe and is absolutely impossible to police. Does Yamadori have an ethical and environmental future?
It is up to those who demonstrate, collect or work on such material to turn the table and seek more sustainable material.
Some of my better trees were gleaned from the wild and with an unknown history. However there are also trees in my collection that came from more humble and renewable sources and have been exhibited alongside yamadori in European shows.
In recent months I have been looking for a really good piece of yamadori for a future demonstration. Apart from the fact I cannot guarantee if the tree came from a legitimate collectig site, I am now having doubts whether I should be using such material at all.

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

Post  drgonzo on Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:06 am

Maybe the only "safe " yamadori are the ones you collect yourself, with proper permissions and all. I would imagine that sort of material would be dearer and more personal for a bonsaist and therefore more special anyway. I agree with Will there is always a little cringe I get when I see Yamadori displayed. Its always that nagging question of where and why was it collected. Its just a little dark cloud that hangs over what could otherwise be a splendid tree. If I were to ever display one of my wild collect trees I would want to include a provenance, maybe a little blurb about how and where it was collected, it would make it more interesting for the viewer perhaps too.
-Jay

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Re: Fascinating blog post about irresponsible collecting and selling in Spain

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