The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

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The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  trantanhung_nt on Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:18 pm

Hello IBC Forum ,
Hello all Friends ,
This Mountain has 5 storeys ... In this area ( region ) , you can fulfill all kind travel ...
Invite you enjoy the novelty of this ... descriptions of landscape stones following :
_ Photo No 1 :

_ Photo No 2 :

_ Photo No 3 :

Thank you .
Best regards ,
Hưng - Trần .

trantanhung_nt
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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:58 pm

Hi trantanhung

Is it 1 or 3 stone?

I find the second very interesting....can you show the stone not in the daisa?

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  trantanhung_nt on Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:59 pm

Hi Yvonne ,
_ They ( all pictures ) are of one stone .
Thank you your Sharing .
Sincerely ,
Hưng - Trần .

trantanhung_nt
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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:20 pm

Hi Trantanhung

You send very nice photos of lovely islandstone-viuvs.....But it is not really suiseki. Neutral

Please send suiseki-photos also.

Kind regards Yvonne Smile

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Norma on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:15 pm

Hi Yvonne,

I'm confused with your statement to Hung Tran..... are you looking for a daiza for his island stone? It seems to me an island stone in a suiban with water is quite an appropriate display!

One thing I learned from Chiara is the use of the word suiseki is to many a Japanese stone only, that being the reason I generally refer to my non-Japanese stones as viewing stones.

It is difficult with the many languages we encounter on the forum to misunderstand, so please excuse my confusion, if this is the case.

Best wishes,
Norma

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Chris Cochrane on Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:47 pm

Hi Norma... While some Japanese might only consider stones from Japan as suiseki, it is not common. Many early revered stones were Chinese & so famous that we recognize several names. Chiara certainly knows that. Chiara also knows several Western enthusiasts who have had stones displayed from their world regions in Japan's most exalted suiseki exhibition-- the annual Meihinten. I doubt the Japanese would say they are not suiseki & insult guests who were invited by the sceening panel to show their stones.

A Japanese prime minister and important Japanese stone collectors have publicly accepted gifts of Western stones in suiseki-style. Whether acknowledged as a "new stone" that will need aging or acknowledged as an especially appreciated gift, these stones have wide repute as suiseki (not just international stone gifts) in Japan.

Would a seasoned suiseki collector in Japan purchase a stone with important international historical connection. Some would. Some would resist. The resistance would not be greater than the resistance to a Western bonsai pot.

If Chiara said only Japanese stones are suiseki in Japan, I think it was an over-generalization. If she said only a Japanese pot is a bonsai pot, it would be similarly misleading. Admittedly, I have some seen gifts to bonsai & suiseki luminaries receive scant attention & even quiet de-accessioning from Japanese collections, but that is not true universally. These same high-end collectors would move Japanese material of less than stellar quality from their collections.

We can agree that suiseki is a Japanese form of appreciation. Many stones touted incorrectly as "in Japanese style" are arguably not in Japanese style-- especially stones in collections outside of Japan.


Last edited by Chris Cochrane on Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:09 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Chris Cochrane on Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:00 pm

Hi Hung Tran... I like the first view. Can you share a view from directly above the stone? The photos are taken from a low angle such that it is difficult to gauge the stones depth (front-to-back) in relation to its width (right-to-left).

Thanks for sharing.

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Norma on Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:12 pm

Hi Chris,

I'd like to respect the opinion of the Japanese viewpoint that the term suiseki comes with specific Japanese classifications especially, where the stone is found in Japan. It was not my intent to argue others' beliefs but only wanted to point out to Yvonne that her use of the word suiseki is quite fluid in the world of stone collecting. Chiara did use the term suiseki when speaking about the Japanese style of form and the aesthetics of presentation.

What are your thoughts about Hung Trans display? Do you feel this stone needs a daiza?

Best wishes,
Norma


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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Guest on Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:39 pm

Hi Norma

You are right. To exhibit stones in a suiban is Perfect, and I should not ask Hungtrantan to show suiseki" with a daisa too.... We have seen hundreds of theese beatifull photos from him, and just wanted to se a stone with a flath bottom. Had too much of one kind of candy....I am sorry Hungtrantan Smile I will never ask again.

Norma, if yo knew me, you would know I only use the the words suiseki and daisa, to make it more easy here on IBC....You have not been on this page for a long time, but if you had been, you would have known, I normaly ONLY call japanese stones suiseki, and the japanese dai, a daisa....but somehow I grew tired af arguing, and I dont really want talk more about this issue at the moment.

Kind regards Yvonne Smile

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  trantanhung_nt on Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:14 am

Hello Yvonne ,
Hello Norma ,
Hello Mr. Chris Cochrane ,
_Yes as Norma said help me ,
I am learning about style Japanese SUISEKI - Stone in many articles of yours on the IBC Forum ...
I would thank you for you , as Mr. Peter Brod , Mr. Chris Cochrane ,... and more recently , is Yvonne , Norma , and alls the other members of the IBC Forum .
Best regards ,
Hưng - Trần .
_ I send another photo of this stone :

trantanhung_nt
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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Guest on Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:08 am

Hi Trantanhung

You sure take nice photos of lovely islandstones.
But you say, you want to learn more about suiseki, and to begin to also show this forum stones with a flat buttom.
Will make you learn more...
I know some people are very specialiced, with, what they collect. And if you only like stones in a suiban, will I ofcourse respect that, and continue to enjoy your stones....But I must say, I am running out of new nice ways to express how nice I find your islandstones.

Kind regards Yvonne Smile

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  sunip on Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:27 am

Hi Hưng - Trần,
Thank you for showing this stone with his lovely color.
Behind the inviting front plateau of this island stone it has a lovely rhythmic movement to the top.
Also the robust and protecting back invites me to dwell in the mysteries of the island.

I got the impression the indication -suiseki- used on this forum, is sometimes a bit tangled up by the members,
and Chris Cochrane and others are putting a lot of effort in this, to teach us about the Japanese appreciation
and other ways of appreciation.
We see a range of stones shown here from just mineral to decorative-ornamental or altered by polishing and so on,
but also more evocative stones who come near the way of Japanese suiseki appreciation,
and we see (Japanese) suiseki.
One could only indicate the Japanese stones as suiseki
or we could indicate all evocative stones suiseki and indicate them as
Vietnamese suiseki, American suiseki, Chinese- European and so on and indicate all other stones as viewing stones.
Or we could talk about viewing stones for all stones and beside of this of Japanese suiseki,
also a practice which is used commonly i believe?


As the stone is it self
what is seeing the stone?

regards, Sunip Wink




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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Guest on Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:20 am

Hi Sunip

I was waiting a reply from you....You really understand to put words to your feelings. Smile

Japanese stones is called suiseki.....chinese stones is allready called changshi......indeonesian stones is allready called suseok.

They are all, most at the time easy to recognise from each other....

Only does the western world not really have a name...viuvingstones is uset, and I guess it is the right word.

Sunip, by letting this tread take this little stray, some may say we are highjacking.

Kind regards Yvonne


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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  trantanhung_nt on Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:43 pm

Hello Mr. Sunip ,
I need to reread your article ( because I am poor English )
Thankful for what you have newly mentioning .
Sincerely ,
Hưng - Trần .

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  trantanhung_nt on Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:58 pm

Hello Yvonne ,
Hello Norma ,
I send to you the image of this stone ... with a flat bottom :
_ Photo 5 :

_ Photo 6 :

_ DAIZA or SUIBAN for it ...??? ( I feel to pose it in SUIBAN is the best )
Many thanks for your sharings .



Hello Mr. Chris HELP me ,
Please show me : Have to make anymore for this stone ... to can determine is it a SUISEKI ...???
Thank you for your enjoyment and experience .
Best regards ,
Hưng - Trần .

trantanhung_nt
Member


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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Guest on Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:27 pm

Hi Trantanhung

Thanks for showing the stone, out of the suiban...it is a more honest way to show the stone, when you want us to appreciate as "suiseki".
Your stone is lovely with a nice collour.

IMHO and IMHO again....
Your stone is not japanese, and therefor not a suiseki.... it is a sukeok.
If you want to display it in the japanese style. will it IMHO be a viuvingstone. Witch is perfectly nice.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Chris Cochrane on Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:40 pm

Hi Hung Tran... Thanks for clarifying, Yvonne. I agree with Norma that the stone is suiseki, but with modest reservations.

My first reservation (and it is not a small one) is that the top of the stone appears oiled. Especially in a suiban, that is a problem. You might be able to reverse the oiling and begin developing a natural skin for the stone by exposure & the same watering schedule applied to bonsai (e.g., every day when the sun is baking). You might have a faster & more effective method; act on valued stones by applying practices with clear evidence that requires time (perhaps, a year) to reliably assess. It might not sound scientific and it is slow, but traditional suiseki "wet aging" will establish a surface that will later require only dusting with a dry cloth. I'm sure others will share secrets of faster and more effective cleaning & aging; to be consistent with suiseki practice, the shortcut will have to create a stone that allows slow evaporation of water on the stone's surface over hours. I am skeptical of most shortcuts for suiseki surface preparation, but open to others' observations. A few techniques help hide modest faults in stones but they are not worthy of discussion as sincere practices for stone surfaces. I have tried a few that will fool the eye for awhile, but there is arguably little to gain by 'tricking' truth.

It is not necessary for most enthusiasts to see the bottom of a stone, but it might be necessary to see either a daiza or suiban matched with the stone to assure that the mounting appears to support a naturally-rounded, shallow bottom for the suiseki. This is asking the same question Yvonne asks but allows the host to not reveal the hidden section. The host is free to hide a cut bottom. Whether it is allowable or not to have a processed (cut & possibly recarved) bottom then falls outside of "reception" as suiseki. Suiseki are seldom shared in intimate or exhibition display as unmounted, today.

I've read from a questionable source that early tea ceremony suiseki (stones I know as "bonseki"-- not the cut stones arranged in lacquer trays with sand painting) were passed for appreciation hand-to-hand. It is true that these stones were often particularly small (held in one hand or even the palm). When this was noted by an important Western collector, enthusiasts were also being encouraged to hand rub stones & even to wipe skin jam from the sides of their noses on stones. I think it apocryphal (doubtful, though widely distributed) to support a practice we wouldn't recommend, today. Still, I once thought it a very appealing way to appreciate stones. You can consider it, too.

Summarizing, I would encourage less use of oil and more sharing of actual mounting. If the stones bottom is hidden without mounting, it is impossible to assess it unless you accept cutting. I seldom respond to your stones in a bottomless tray setting, Hung Tran. It is not that I don't like what I see but that oiling or a bottom not suggested by mounting leaves me with nothing to share that will promote stone friendship. Occasionally, I respond because the mounting above sand indicates the stone just beginning to curving under naturally. Generally, I prefer the stone buried a little deeper, but signaling a stone's natural bottom where the suiban depth is limitless begins to draw my imagination.

I never like a hidden element when assessing a photographed stone. A landscape stone of modest height should typically be wider (horizontal dimension) than deep (front-to-back dimension). Your photos clarify this possible weakness. Artistic enthusiasts including Yuji Yoshimura have turned this apparent flaw to advantage in creative display. It is your option, too. We should not be so rigid as to rely only on strict guidance. A review of stones at the last Meihinten suggests that suiseki fall outside of contour classifications. The most natural suiseki are not perfected models of iconic scenic views; instead, they are surprisingly apt, impressionistic stones that encourage appreciation for the atmosphere of a scene which extends beyond the stone's contours.

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Chris Cochrane on Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:07 pm

Hi Hung Tran... I really like your "Five Mountains" stone.

Did you name it for the legendary four peaks in each direction (North, East, South, West) plus one in the center, which represents the universe in Chinese & Indian iconography? In Japan as well as China, the "Five Mountains"/Gozan (J.) of Zen represented the 5 major temples associated with varying forms of Zen Buddhist practice-- several of the temples were on mountains or had mountains rising nearby though not all. It is a resounding theme in art and in reference to spiritual & cosmological metaphor. Mountain ranges with odd numbers of peaks are imagined even when not obvious. In Daoist thought, they are seen as the rising back of a partially revealed dragon; Hong Kong/Kowloon's "9 peaks" is especially auspicious for the harbor as representing the spirit of a dragon.

You prefer the stone in a suiban and generously shared it at various angles and depths, and I tried to imagine each. I like the very first photo but it would require a considerably deep suiban. A deep suiban is suitable but somewhat rarely seen with modern suiseki. If you have a deep suiban that fits it could be a very elegant option.

If you imagine placing the suiseki in a shallow suiban, it works with modest reservation. One of your photos appears the best option for the front in a shallow suiban. Using your illustration, I imagine the suiseki's strongest visual flow toward the front, mostly, as well as somewhat toward the left. The blue arrow suggest the stone's visual flow, for me. A light-colored, orange suiban that is longer from front-to-back than from right-to-left suggest a non-traditional way to accommodate the visual flow (see illustration attached). Since visual flow is usually evaluated more for right or left directional influence, a dark-colored orange suiban is drawn, and it would be more consistent in choice with traditional placement.

(note: Both of the orange suiban perimeters are a little too squeezed by the stone placement in their back, right section-- either slightly larger suiban or moving the stone slightly toward the left or forward will ease the squeezing.)

These are among options to consider. Having one foot (lower left corner) of the five peaks hanging above the sand is less than ideal in the photo I copied. This is no surprise to you. A deeper tray (as in your first photo) cures this problem. A tray with a strong & thin bottom would allow the wall of the tray to be less deep, which may be why taller trays for stones in Japan are often made of bronze rather than ceramic. Shorter wall height greatly reduces the mass of the tray relative to the suiseki, which adds to the sense of naturalness and open space.

Deep suiban suggest mounting more common in an earlier age. This could change in an instant if collectors were suddenly encouraged to display new stones in deep suiban for premier suiseki exhibitions. In the meantime, it may be best to match suiban which look deeply aged with stones that look deeply aged if using a deep suiban.

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  trantanhung_nt on Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:39 pm

Hello Chris Cochrane ,
Right now , I have yet ( pas encore ) to understand more your deeply posts for me ... I am need to learn more with care and goodwill help of you and all .
Many thanks , you gave me much needed insights on how to enjoy stone , presenting , evaluating , feel and find its content subject ...
Best regards ,
Hưng - Trần .

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Chris Cochrane on Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:16 pm

Hi Hung Tran... Do you understand the notion of "visual flow?" Visual flow suggests the direction the viewer's gaze will be directed as gaze leaves the suiseki-- most importantly, whether the eye moves left or right, but also (though less importantly) whether the eye moves forward and backward. The notion of visual flow has a significant effect on placement of every object in arrangement (suiseki alone, suiseki with scroll, suiseki with accessory (complementary plant or okimono ), or suiseki with scroll & accessory) in a limited space.

If you understand visual flow (blue arrow) in the last illustration, it helps to understand where your stone (brown outline) is placed on two illustrated suiban-- one suiban drawn with a light-orange, oval perimeter & another suiban drawn with a dark-orange, oval perimeter. In the direction of visual flow, your imagination is most likely to find an "open space" where wandering mind will perceive a limitless atmosphere. I am sure this doesn't translate easily from English; it is better experienced than described.

I hope that helps in understanding the illustration, which is only my perception. Others could see different options for suiban placement. I have a modest preference for burying the stone more deeply-- as you did (good choice!) in your first photo in the thread. A deep burial requires a deep suiban or cutting. Using a deep suiban rather than cutting, you will not be commit to harming the stone as you evaluate it for tray-placement &/or cutting in the future.

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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  trantanhung_nt on Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:35 am

Hello Yvonne ,
Hello Mr. Chris Cochrane ,
Thankful yours explanation ,
And today , please you comes back to " visual flow " for the landscape - Stone following :
_ Photo No 1 :

_ Photo No 2 :

Thankful for You .
Best regards ,
Hưng - Trần .

trantanhung_nt
Member


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Re: The MOUNTAIN ( has 5 storeys )

Post  Chris Cochrane on Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:00 pm

Hi Hung Tran... The shape of the stone's contour visually flows to the left, but for a waterpool suiseki (Japanese style) there is an exception. For a waterpool stone, consider the direction which water flows from the pool as most influential. Water preferably overflows at the lowest lip of the pool with a recognizable path from the pool to the sand. Your stone shows this path distinctly. Place this stone as suiseki in a suiban with visual flow directed to-the-right. Therefore, more open space would be seen to-the- right of the stone inside the suiban. Visual flow will move in that direction & beyond the suiban into the imagined scene.

Of course, you are not limited, but suiseki guidance is to follow the flow (or 'imagined flow' if the pool is dry) of water for a waterpool stone. As a viewing stone or shangshi, either direction is arguably correct. Only in suiseki is the flow of water a clear preference over stone contour in determining visual flow.

Hope that helps.

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