homemade soil question

That biblical reference is taken directly from Oil-Dri's website...

As for maintaining baseball fields, I've actually bought so many bags of pro-field conditioner that one of the guys at the Agway I order it from asked me (jokingly I think) If I was building a baseball diamond.

-Jay

Jay, where have you been able to find oil-dri in upstate NY? I don't think I've ever seen it around here (though I haven't looked very hard). I'd love to grab some and do some tests.

Chris..
sent u a PM

drgonzo,


Could you give a link to the Oil Dry website you are referring to?

I can't find what your talking about when I go to their site. Thanks. Gary

Gary Swiech wrote:drgonzo,


Could you give a link to the Oil Dry website you are referring to?

I can't find what your talking about when I go to their site. Thanks. Gary

Yup, its right on their main page third paragraph down,
http://www.oildri.com/about/index.html

Also its seems these folks make Oil-Dry with a 'Y' as well, I believe its all the same company.

I have also sent them an e-mail asking if they do make calcined clay products and I'll post up the answer if I get one.
-Jay

drgonzo,
I found the page. Thank You.

I'm going to do a little research myself. I have an open mind but I'm pretty pragmatic. If it works don't fix it.

Other than my conifers Oil-Dry has worked for me for 30 yrs. Maybe I'll get a bag of Turface and do some side by side sudies.

Gary Swiech wrote:drgonzo,
I found the page. Thank You.

I'm going to do a little research myself. I have an open mind but I'm pretty pragmatic. If it works don't fix it.

Other than my conifers Oil-Dry has worked for me for 30 yrs. Maybe I'll get a bag of Turface and do some side by side sudies.

I think my preference for Turface comes from my preference for using 100% inorganic soils. I grow trees in basically straight up Turface. When I rooted a massive (5 inch thick) grape vine this summer, I put it in pure oil-dri because I happened to be out of Turface, after a couple months, I had to slit the 5 gallon pot up the side to get the now well rooted grape out because the oil-dry had already lost its friability and turned to mush. If it was a component in a soil mixture, as you use it, this problem would not be as pronounced.

-Jay

P.S. "If it aint broke don't fix it." is the core of any good cheap Yankees philosophy, I plan to have it carved on my headstone

If you get the NAPA autoparts brand oil dry it will not turn to mush. Do you have problems with turface and japanese maples or other deciduous trees? A local expert/chemist says that turface has ph problems and that it holds onto salts to much.

bucknbonsai wrote:If you get the NAPA autoparts brand oil dry it will not turn to mush. Do you have problems with turface and japanese maples or other deciduous trees? A local expert/chemist says that turface has ph problems and that it holds onto salts to much.

You make an important point in that the Montmorillonite that comprises oil-dri absorbent products is mined from high altitude ancient alkaline sea beds it therefore can certainly adversely affect the soils PH when you water.

the Napa Oil Dri seems to hold together a bit better than the oil dry you get in the brown paper bag I agree, yet both decompose quickly when compared to a calcined clay product such as Turface.

As far as holding on to dissolved salts I believe that would have to to with its cation exchange capacity, Turface's CEC is quite high, but in an inorganic soil mix CEC is not as crucial as it would be if you were working with High CEC substrates mixed with organic material, like out in a vegetable garden. The Oil-dri ITSELF as it dissolves may leach calcium carbonate salts into the soil, that could explain unusually high salts in soils containing oil-dri. Its very possible that the Oil-dri does not "hold on" to dissolved salts in the soil but is actually the source of them. Someone should PH test Oil-dri with distilled water and see what we get. i may have a bit hanging around if I do i'll test it. I'm curious what it would test out as.
-Jay

bucknbonsai wrote:If you get the NAPA autoparts brand oil dry it will not turn to mush. Do you have problems with turface and japanese maples or other deciduous trees? A local expert/chemist says that turface has ph problems and that it holds onto salts to much.

I heard that the curator of the US National Exhibit in DC quit using Turface over the salts issue. But I still use it.

Well, then the obvious question is, what has he replaced the tuface with?

Chris

coh wrote:Well, then the obvious question is, what has he replaced the tuface with?

Chris

Thats the big question, and there are some folks who are expert hydroponic inorganic gardeners that would opine that the soil components can't hold on to excess salts unless those excess salts are first watered in to the soil. I.e. look to your water for salts, not your soil. Turface is pretty inert stuff, I wonder if he believes the Turface is retaining salts or is the source of them? Perhaps his water quality has changed, it can happen!

-Jay

Billy . . . are you talking about the current curator, or was this Warren Hill? I seem to recall that he moved away from Turface, but I don't know about his successors.

JimLewis wrote:Billy . . . are you talking about the current curator, or was this Warren Hill? I seem to recall that he moved away from Turface, but I don't know about his successors.

I know the information I had is some years old so it was probably an earlier curator than the present.

Here is my response from oil dry,


"Yes, they are made from calcined clay, and the varieties we mine & manufacture are also referred to as Fullers Earth."

John Franklin
Customer Service Manager
Industrial Automotive & Sports Products
Oil-Dri Corporation of America
800-645-3747

So my question is, what explains Oil Dry's "calcined clay" product and the very obvious difference between it and Turface's Calcined clay product. I'm going to ask a follow up question...will keep you all posted.
-Jay

John has just written back the text is quoted below.

"The term "calcined" refers to a process used in drying and hardening the clay. It is not specific to a particular variety. Any of the absorbent clays can be or are calcined, or are dried using various other methods. The specific varieties we mine & manufacture are Attapulgite, Montmorillonite and Amorphous Opaline Silica."


This is his answer back to me just now, after I asked if oil-dri contains Arcillite (which by definition is what Montmorillonite becomes after calcination). Which he didn't directly answer,

I also asked him what the difference was between Oil-Dry's calcined clay products and Turface's Calcined clay products , a question he also didn't answer.

the statement "or are dried using various other methods".. is telling I think. I think he's using a different definition for "Calcined" then what I'm seeing as I look up what calcination really is.

take it for what its worth folks.. If I wrote to the makers of Turface and asked similar questions I wonder what they would tell me?...I may just do that...
-Jay

Probably temperature.

Oil Dri is, I suspect, not fired at as high a temperature because the use for which it is intended does not require long life in/on the field. It goes on garage floors to sop up spilled motor oil, then is scooped up and disposed of.

Turface is used on sports fields and must be able to withstand heat, cold, wet and dry.

Various undoctored cat littler products are made of the same material, and some of them soup up quickly when wet and some do not. The difference is firing temperature. Again, there is no need for persistence.

JimLewis wrote:Probably temperature.

Oil Dri is, I suspect, not fired at as high a temperature because the use for which it is intended does not require long life in/on the field. It goes on garage floors to sop up spilled motor oil, then is scooped up and disposed of.

Turface is used on sports fields and must be able to withstand heat, cold, wet and dry.

Various undoctored cat littler products are made of the same material, and some of them soup up quickly when wet and some do not. The difference is firing temperature. Again, there is no need for persistence.

This is exactly what my thoughts were as well.
-Jay

Hi drgonzo and others,

Here's the Oil Dry I was talking about. Oli Dry site information

I'm re-potting now and bought 2 bags of Turface to try out instead of Oil Dry.

I used it on a large Trident maple grove I started from seed back in 1985.

I hope I don't have any problems with it.

BTW, I hadn't transplanted the grove for 3 years and while cutting the roots the Oil Dry was still intact.

I'll compare the two substances and see how it shakes out and let you know. I'm going to run PH tests on both of them w/distilled water. I will report back.

I might have said this before in this thread, but I think the actual material that is labeled "Oil Dry" and/or "Turface" varies in different places.

I just did a quick count with pencil and paper of the bulk of my collection (its easy cause they're all in the living room right now) and I have 30 different species all growing and thriving in 100% Turface! What an amazing substrate.

Bougies, to Maples, Spruce to Cotoneaster, Beech's to 'beams, ficus, Quince, Larch, lilac, hawthorn, Boxwood, Honeysuckle .....just amazing stuff.
-Jay

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:I might have said this before in this thread, but I think the actual material that is labeled "Oil Dry" and/or "Turface" varies in different places.

I don't know if this is true with turface, but it certainly seems likely with the various "oil-dry" products. Test before you use! I bought some last fall (after reading this thread) and did a side-by-side comparison with turface. They look similar, hold similar amounts of water...but the oil-dry that I obtained was definitely softer...and that became very apparent when it was water soaked. After a couple of freeze-thaw cycles there was much more degradation in the oil-dry than the turface...though I must admit that the oil-dry didn't turn completely to mush.

Had a similar experience with another product that was touted as a "turface replacement" on another forum - a product called "Special Kitty cat litter" from Wal-Mart. People were singing its praises. One thing that was true - much, much cheaper than turface. And just like the oil-dry that I tested, superficially similar in appearance, density, water-holding ability. But it became very soft when wet, and turned largely to mush after a freeze-thaw cycle.

So, buyer beware!

In Garys post just above he links to oil-dri's website and products called agrisorb and pro-choice. I believe these products are high fired clays, whats most interesting to me is that there is a wide range of granule sizes, colors, and ph values available for those products. I'm looking into them tonight but I'm not sure where I could order or purchase them.
-Jay

I also found out my Pro-field conditioner (which I order through my local True Value) is made by Profile LLC which also owns the Turface trade name and makes the various "turface" products.

Another product you can use if you cannot find Turface is a very similar one, Mule Mix, also used as an athletic field conditioner. Like Turface it is a high-fired clay product that does not break down. The particles in the pots in which I used it last spring are as hard as they were then--no breakdown in a year.
My thanks to Randy Davis for alerting me to this product.
Oliver

And, at least in some sub-brands of Mule Mix, particle size is a bit larger. Until recently, I had no vendor for MM around here, but there's one in Hendersonville now, I think. I still have one full bag of Turface to use up first.