My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

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My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  Gncarv on Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:04 pm

Hellow all.
First off all im from Portugal so sorry for my English.

I was given a Chinese Elm Has a gift, because i always liked Bonsai (since Karate Kid) Lol
And i want to take the best care off it.
I am reading all i can get my hands on but i still didnt decide where to go with my bonsai.
Can you give me a help on this?
Tks ppl



Other thing there are new leafs bursting everywhere eaven on the main stem what do i do with them?

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  Andre Beaurain on Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:22 am

Hi Gncarv

Another thread with 186 hits and not a single help form anybody.  So sorry for you mate, I do appologize for the lazy lot in this forum. (this is for all the experts and Free loaders with noting to say tongue )

 Im not the expert here but Ill try...

There is to many thick parts on the trunk that is thicker that the base.  This is not desirable.

I think you must cut the tree back to just above the first branch to start forming  a taper.  Although your branch placement is nice and correct the top branch is thicker than the bottom once....also not desirable.  

You tree must try and form a triangle...at the moment it looks square.

In saying all that you have the formula right so keep going at it...Wink

Love Light and Awakening

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  BobbyLane on Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:20 am

http://www.bonsai4me.co.uk/AdvTech/ATDeciduousBonsaiBranchStructure.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvNo-igPgO0

My 2 cents Smile

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  Andre Beaurain on Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:38 am

There we go ......

Thanks Bobby! ....... this is what I meant you must do with your tree as well.

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  beer city snake on Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:15 pm

Andre Beaurain wrote:You tree must try and form a triangle...

i hope Gncarv is thinking this very same question:

"why must it form a triangle ???"
Wink Suspect Wink

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  M. Frary on Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:55 pm

beer city snake wrote:
Andre Beaurain wrote:You tree must try and form a triangle...

i hope Gncarv is thinking this very same question:

"why must it form a triangle ???"
Wink Suspect Wink

Because all the kids are doing it now a days?
Triangles are part of the whole 3 rule. Almost everything in bonsai abides by the thirds rule. Height 3 times trunk diameter. First branch a third of the way up. Even most soils are divided into 3 parts. Absolutely no fours.

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  beer city snake on Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:36 pm

and here is where i may become infuriating Razz
but i must ask: why ?

maybe this thread isn't the place to question the status quo
but i just can't help myself Wink

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  Precarious on Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:30 pm

I can perhaps give a "why?" answer, though not directly from Japanese lore. Leonoardo da Vinci (this is the best I remember it, people, so feel free to correct where I go off the path) saw a ratio in the universe. The Divine Proportion can be said to create an ideal proportion between two objects or two parts of a whole. Of course that proportion is roughly 'thirds' (62% to 38%). I don't know about the trunk diameter 1/3 the tree height Suspect Yet there are proportions that look most pleasing, or natural, or...right somehow. It's part of the divine mystery that cannot be fully explained by mere mortals.

All that said, I always thought of the triangle as a statement of strength and stability. Maybe it is part of that...divine...golden...mysterious proportion thing. Hmmm, food for meditation.

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  beer city snake on Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:19 pm

well hells bells, david !!!

thats a better answer than the one i expected !!!
(i was trying to draw out the traditionalists  Razz )

i believe this is what you were referring to:

http://www.keplersdiscovery.com/DivineProportion.html

but i will quibble over one thing you said:
"Yet there are proportions that look most pleasing, or natural..."

it appears in bonsai that the 2 are not necessarily mutually inclusive as the more "pleasing" the tree is forced to be,
the less natural it ends up looking... i'm not saying its right or wrong... just saying.

after all, i have some trees that are pleasing, but not very natural
and i have some trees that are very natural, but not very pleasing
and of course i have some that are neither
while only a very few that are almost both... something that is very difficult to attain
(see arthur joura's work for good examples of trees that are both)


btw - i hope andre is happy with all these contributions Beaurangel

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  Precarious on Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:11 pm

Point well taken.

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  M. Frary on Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:55 am

One thing I would lIke to do with an elm styled like this would be to put it in the ground or a collander and grow it out. Everyone says to chop these down and regrow them. I bet if these trees were left to grow to maybe 4 to 5 inch diameter it would soften some of the harsh curves out. I can't find them by me or I would already have done it.
And I meant to say that when to chop a tree the first chop should be 1/3 the height of the finished tree.

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  JWT on Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:37 am

M. Frary wrote:And I meant to say that when to chop a tree the first chop should be 1/3 the height of the finished tree.

Why is that? I frequently chop mallsai to first branch. I see a lot of great bonsai that are made by chopping right above root flare. Acers for example.

When cutting like this I seldom know what size tree i want. For me its the lower the better. It depends on how the tree will react. Where does the new growth pop up.


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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  fiona on Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:06 am

Guys, look again at the original post please. This is the poster's first visit to IBC and I think we can assume that he is a beginner. Philosophical discussions about golden rules are not really the best response here. And it we are going to use terms like mallsai, then we need to explain them.

gncrv - you have what is known as a "mallsai" - the standard mass-produced trees that are sold in garden centres and hardware stores as bonsai. They pretty much all have that S-shape yours has.

At the moment your tree is not a good tree - altho' we accept you may have sentimental attachment to it as it is your first tree. What M.Frary is advising is your best bet - plant it into a much bigger pot (doesn't need to be a bonsai pot) to let it grow more and to let its trunk fatten up a bit. Depending on your local climate this can take some time. Also depending in your local climate, you may need to give it shelter from cold - i.e. indoors if it's very cold in your area in winter. Do nothing other than watering it until at the earliest next spring/summer. In the meantime, read up on bonsai. There is a book list in our Tutorials section and someone has already given you the link to bonsai4me.

Don't worry about styling at this point as there is really nothing to style. let it grow and give yourself more options.

And last, as we always say to new folk, if there is a decent bonsai club near you, go along and chat with the folk there for advice and inspiration.

But more importantly, have fun with your new tree while remembering in bonsai, especially in codler climates, nothing happens quickly.

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  leatherback on Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:14 am

In Addition to Fiona's post:

You mention there are leaves popping all over the trunk. On the lower half, leave all of them untill they are small branches. Eventually you might have to remove some, to avoid ugly bulges. But for now, you want a lot of branches growing lower on the trunk. they will help produce a biot of taper in the trunk. (You may want to have a look at: http://www.growingbonsai.net/advanced/growing-trunks/

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my elm what direction to take with photos

Post  llantrisant on Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:39 pm

Hi Gncarv I think you should grow your tree to what pleases you. Unless you where a bonsai master showing your trees I think all this talk on size of branch and how many makes no difference.Its what pleases you.Just enjoy you tree.

Very Happy

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  Precarious on Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:49 pm

hear hear

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

Post  steveb on Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:02 am

What took me 6 years to learn will hopefully take you much less time.  When developing  a tree from the beginning (include your tree in this category), one needs to decide on its final height early on.  I generally find trees 14" - 30" tall the most appealing.  Smaller, and they don't always look like trees, and larger, and they don't look...miniature.  This is a personal preference and you will need to form your own tastes.  The height of the tree is normally 6 - 10 times its diameter.  These are guidelines that are frequently broken by the more experienced.  However, I think it is a good starting point for a beginner.  The next step, and the one that tests patience, is to let the tree grow until it reaches this diameter.  This normally means keeping it healthy and disturbing it as little as possible, oh, and let it grow.

Steve

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Re: My Elm What directions to take (with photos)

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