As standards change - worse or better ?

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Vance,

not to fuss this is the lounge, grab a pint / beer /ale / vino / whit tea, sit, relax and chat. Some points might be made, and we as a group can discuss, but it is just the lounge.

My earlier point was simply that naturally beautiful specimens from nature are very rare. They got the title - Potted Trees.
What we do today is try to reach that standard [ or exceed ] with Bonsai / Punsai / Tree Penjing and so on.

Just chatting.
Later.
Khaimraj

See----I agree with that.  For a long time the Japanese and, to some extent, the Chinese, so highly stylized their trees that those of us in the west, being drawn in to these images, were not challenged to make trees more natural but were instead expected to copy some of these Surreal masterpieces as a standard.  Thanks to people like Walter Pall and many others our trees are now a bit more relaxed and not so uptight as we used to say.  To be sure there is still a recognizable form in the work involved to produce the "image of a tree". You are of course not going to be able to produce the image of an old mature tree in a pot without some sort of mature tree pattern to follow.   Gone are some of the very strident and narrowly focused elements we have beheld in the past, specifically the placement of branches in specific order and some of the styles which are not seen much any more, commonly called cookie cutter trees.  On a hole, I see Bonsai world wide focusing not so much on the Japanese model but instead, marching out to its own drummer.  Absolutely; bonsai is bonsai and will always be associated with the images created in Japan and China. That will never change.   The argument can be made that you can go so far away from that model that it is no longer recognized as bonsai,---- just as you can make an automobile that flys forcing you, and everyone else,  to call it an airplane for legal purposes. It is after all the evolution of the art. You would not call a whale a wolf though some would say the whale evolved from a wolf like creature.

Vance,

I retain, a back branch for volume, and if the design allowed it, it could be the first branch.

I look to the Japanese for a standard in branchlet density, ditto leaf density, as well as a way to handle trees that grow very few branches, but are still quite beautiful.

To the Chinese, the ability to flex / adapt / innovate. I have quite a few books [ which I cannot read, but contain images that inspire ]
In fact I find much of the work out of Thailand, and Malaysia very impressive [ just wish everyone would stop with the Pemphis - Shimpaku , same for Buttonwood or Suriana - Shimpaku - wannabe envy crap.]

BUT I draw my limits with pots that feature too much design, other than simple glazes, and will sit quietly letting the hidden work on the tree be enjoyed.

Some forms of evolution in design are good to excellent, some not so good. I do tire of all the trees with driftwood, especially if it does not work or belong, and many will not keep up the maintenance on decaying wood.
Yes, it is evolution.
Later.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Vance,

I retain, a back branch for volume, and if the design allowed it, it could be the first branch.

I look to the Japanese for a standard in branchlet density, ditto leaf density, as well as a way to handle trees that grow very few branches, but are still quite beautiful.

To the Chinese, the ability to flex / adapt / innovate. I have quite a few books [ which I cannot read, but contain images that inspire ]
In fact I find much of the work out of Thailand, and Malaysia very impressive [ just wish everyone would stop with the Pemphis - Shimpaku , same for Buttonwood or  Suriana - Shimpaku - wannabe envy crap.]

BUT I draw my limits with pots that feature too much design, other than simple glazes, and will sit quietly letting the  hidden work on the tree be enjoyed.

Some forms of evolution in design are good to excellent, some not so good. I do tire of all the trees with driftwood, especially if it does not work or belong, and many will not keep up the maintenance on decaying wood.
Yes, it is evolution.
Later.
Khaimraj

Again I agree with you. However; not one of these trees designed anywhere that you have mentioned is not recognizable as a bonsai, no matter how strained the relationship with the standard patterns might be.

Vance Wood wrote:

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Vance,

I retain, a back branch for volume, and if the design allowed it, it could be the first branch.

I look to the Japanese for a standard in branchlet density, ditto leaf density, as well as a way to handle trees that grow very few branches, but are still quite beautiful.

To the Chinese, the ability to flex / adapt / innovate. I have quite a few books [ which I cannot read, but contain images that inspire ]
In fact I find much of the work out of Thailand, and Malaysia very impressive [ just wish everyone would stop with the Pemphis - Shimpaku , same for Buttonwood or  Suriana - Shimpaku - wannabe envy crap.]

BUT I draw my limits with pots that feature too much design, other than simple glazes, and will sit quietly letting the  hidden work on the tree be enjoyed.

Some forms of evolution in design are good to excellent, some not so good. I do tire of all the trees with driftwood, especially if it does not work or belong, and many will not keep up the maintenance on decaying wood.
Yes, it is evolution.
Later.
Khaimraj

Again I agree with you.  However; not one of these trees designed anywhere that you have mentioned is not recognizable as a bonsai, no matter how strained the relationship with the standard patterns might be.

Vance,
Which trees are not recognizable with as Bonsai? you are kidding right? do you mean Phempis as one of the "not recognizable as a bonsai"?

regards,
jun    


...and Khaimraj,

Wannabe envy crap? what do you mean by that? which ones our trees? You guys might be pushing this discussion too hard.

regards,
jun  

Khaimraj,
People got their own way of designing trees, some wants it natural some want's it to be a Shimpaku like ...Example is the Phempis. It really depends on the designer of the tree. but either way if design well I can guarantee you it is not a "crap"...























Mixed designs in this exhibitions of Phempis, Some natural, some Shimpaku like, both styles were recognized by professionals (Real bonsai masters) from both the tropics and leading Japanese bonsai masters as world class and superbly done...and none were "wanna be crap"...maybe we should look at our own designs and results of works before we judged on others approach and works. 

jun wrote:

Vance Wood wrote:

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Vance,

I retain, a back branch for volume, and if the design allowed it, it could be the first branch.

I look to the Japanese for a standard in branchlet density, ditto leaf density, as well as a way to handle trees that grow very few branches, but are still quite beautiful.

To the Chinese, the ability to flex / adapt / innovate. I have quite a few books [ which I cannot read, but contain images that inspire ]
In fact I find much of the work out of Thailand, and Malaysia very impressive [ just wish everyone would stop with the Pemphis - Shimpaku , same for Buttonwood or  Suriana - Shimpaku - wannabe envy crap.]

BUT I draw my limits with pots that feature too much design, other than simple glazes, and will sit quietly letting the  hidden work on the tree be enjoyed.

Some forms of evolution in design are good to excellent, some not so good. I do tire of all the trees with driftwood, especially if it does not work or belong, and many will not keep up the maintenance on decaying wood.
Yes, it is evolution.
Later.
Khaimraj

Again I agree with you.  However; not one of these trees designed anywhere that you have mentioned is not recognizable as a bonsai, no matter how strained the relationship with the standard patterns might be.

Vance,
Which trees are not recognizable with as Bonsai? you are kidding right? do you mean Phempis as one of the "not recognizable as a bonsai"?

regards,
jun    


...and Khaimraj,

Wannabe envy crap? what do you mean by that? which ones our trees? You guys might be pushing this discussion too hard.

regards,
jun  

No not at all, we have had conversations on the other forum in the past where people had been trying to redefine bonsai claiming that bonsai does not necessarily have to look like bonsai they can take forms more like topiary or something as yet unimagined.  Phempis make wonderful bonsai, I am afraid you are equating different material to different styles. As to pushing the discussion too hard: That's a possibility but sometimes you cannot learn something unless you push the envelope and when we are talking about esthetics sometimes boundaries have to be challenged.

L.L.B,

as I have said before, I am not the god of Bonsai, and this the Lounge, so if I say something contrary to what you believe, know that friends do not have to agree on everything, otherwise what kind of friendship is that ?????

I am just not much on copying other peoples' work. It is a Fine Artist philosophy thingee.

Notice how I grow Tamarinds [ to what my island shows as examples ] and not how folk on your side grow them.
Our Tamarinds are never used for firewood, and are often single trunked and noble, with broad domes sometimes domes within domes, showing no radial roots, but a typical elevated and enlarged trunk.
So truth to nature - what in Fine Art would be realism and idealism, and not mannerism.

It also tells folk, that these Bonsai are from Trinidad, and are not Japanese wannabes, I see Sifu [ Robert Stevens pushing a similar philosophy.]
AND TRINIS are PROUD to be INDIVIDUALS!!!
[ Hee hee it does not mean this is the 'bestest' shape or most visually pleasing - that's the Chinese and Japanese advantage, hundreds of years to hit the optimum situations -    ]
Stay Well.
Khaimraj

* Pronounced -------- TRINEEEES

But you don't have to call others work or style as "crap" specially if their works is clearly better than yours. It will appear as pure envy and nothing else. Just saying the truth, you said this is the lounge anyway.

If somebody tried to copy natural trees (Which is not that easy) and the result is a "crap" I would suggest he/she should try other style first...then move up the ladder,,,of creating his/her "own style" ,otherwise the one you referred to as original and natural will be just like any bush around you.


Now, back to your original question, as I understand it- " As standards change-worse or better". Why the older generation are not using yamadori instead they are doing bonsai from seed?. It has nothing to do with respect with nature or they viewed yamadori bonsai as a lower class bonsai. it is simply because they didn't discovered it during the old days. It is just like saying why are we not using horses and carriage now instead we use cars, Horses and carriages look more noble, elegant  and environment friendly? And the logical answer is the same, If cars were invented during the 17th century I am sure they would prefer using it rather than horses and carriages.

regards,
jun  

Let's do some visual comparison here, let's use a Kokufu ten display, as Kokufu ten got a very old tradition comparatively speaking.

Focus on the quality of the displayed trees.


1934



Recent time...




You decide which is worse and which is better...here we are not talking about yamadori.



*images are all in public domain.

regards,
jun  

L.L.B,

you are aware that the Matsudaira work is considered - National Treasures ??
Listed as never on exhibition.
And the others are ????????????

Plus have you ever seen other than the very few web images of his work ?
Or read what he did for Japan and on the side Bonsai ?

Hey, if you think what I do is rubbish, no sweat, this is a hobby, I am not selling and I only show for fun.
Please note, I am not offended in anyway, so this goes no further okay?
Stay Well.
Khaimraj

Are you only referring to an individual person? or your question of changes is addressed to the whole changes in the bonsai community?


And don't asked me if I have seen other trees from these people or somebody else...hehe. You don't know me that well.  

 I am looking for this article that you might be interested in. the gist is about Japanese bonsai community rethinking new approach to revitalized the slowly dying bonsai culture in Japan.
It seems that they realized that it's either you adapt to changes or accept that fate of extinctions.

regards,
jun   

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:


Hey, if you think what I do is rubbish, no sweat, this is a hobby, I am not selling and I only show for fun.
Please note, I am not offended in anyway, so this goes no further okay?
Stay Well.
Khaimraj

Did I say Khaimraj works is "rubbish"? No I didn't, Are you saying your works are rubbish? Don't do that to yourself. hehehe. Just don't say other styles are "crap" that's all. I also don't  like plastic looking trees, but I respect their styles as co-equal to the natural styles which I prefer the most.

...and continue having fun with the hobby.

regards,
LLB.

L.L.B.,

because I got into Bonsai so long ago I have old friends and also family,in Japan and China, Bonsai is not dying in anyway.
Sales of bonsai and folk willing to buy is down.

Why, because it is all becoming too commercial.

Everyone is running with technology, faster and faster. Bonsai is too slow.

Bonsai was first a relaxing hobby [ not talking about Potted Trees ] and it mattered not if you had the cat's miaow or the bee's knees in style and so on.
I keep it like that for me.
Laters.
Khaimraj

L.L.B,

Here is why I don't take a lot of folk seriously, when I see examples like this,

http://bonsaitonight.com/,

If you have to go to

Archives

select -

Month - March

scroll down to - In Praise of Colanders,

Posted in Bonsai Development by Jonas Dupuich on March 25, 2014

When I see a hobbyist who can do this, well.................
Later.
Khaimraj

* I have discovered that all off our trees respond well to this technique.

Khaimraj,

In my recent trip to vietnam, I met two Japanese friends as fellow judges in the event.
One of the artists is an owner of a factory of organic bonsai fertilizer in pellet form, the other artist is into bonsai exportation. other than being a good person as most Japanese people are they have one thing in common during that event besides the judging also. They are planning to bring Japanese bonsai culture and products outside of Japan. Their reason, their market locally is dwendling and becoming less profitable. They said younger generations of Japanese people are less interested in bonsai nowadays, and what they saw in South East asian bonsai  community simply overwhelm them. Very few senior citizens and the crowd of hundreds of bonsai people.
So, if you call that "not dying", I don't know what else is that trend can be referred to.
regards,
jun  

L.L.B,

you just don't get it do you.

Economics.
Standard rule of business - never get into a business that is too easy to duplicate.

The Koreshoff and even older books tell how to make organic composted fertiliser. So if I wanted to all I would need is a couple bags of Soy meal or Dahl powder or Channa powder and follow the instructions, plus you can just use compost.
I can even enrich with rice hulls and a touch of bone meal.

Or I can just use a complete inorganic fertiliser, and use peat moss as my organic soil ingredient or cocopeat.

Or just use a complete hydroponic fertiliser.

Why would anyone need pellets ?

The point is, there is too much information in writing to take anyone wanting to supply bonsai stuff, seriously.
Any potter can make a pot for bonsai, the cheap yellow label concave pruner works well on twigs, and so on.

It is a cheap hobby, and one can still collect yammadori for free, drains, fences, highways, hillsides and so on always have new stuff, and you don't have to enter the Parks. [ Remember to refill the holes - for newbees ]
Or you can do as you suggested, just airlayer, as long as it is not breaking any environmental laws.

So what if Joe average Japanese doesn't want to do Bonsai, bonsai tends to hold more on cerebral folk, and they will keep it alive.
In ancient China, I guess bonsai died out???

It is not numbers that matter in Bonsai, just a willingness to grow and relax, as hobbies offer.
AND you can still push yourself to the max.

NO Bonsai in Japan is not in trouble, just the business men who want to work it.Opportunists.
Which is what I told you already.
Laters.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:L.L.B,

you just don't get it do you.

Economics.
Standard rule of business - never get into a business that is too easy to duplicate.

The Koreshoff and even older books tell how to make organic composted fertiliser. So if I wanted to all I would need is a couple bags of Soy meal or Dahl powder or Channa powder and follow the instructions, plus you can just use compost.
I can even enrich with rice hulls and a touch of bone meal.

Or I can just use a complete inorganic fertiliser, and use peat moss as my organic soil ingredient or cocopeat.

Or just use a complete hydroponic fertiliser.

Why would anyone need pellets ?

The point is, there is too much information in writing to take anyone wanting to supply bonsai stuff, seriously.
Any potter can make a pot for bonsai, the cheap yellow label concave pruner works well on twigs, and so on.

It is a cheap hobby, and one can still collect yammadori for free, drains, fences, highways, hillsides and so on always have new stuff, and you don't have to enter the Parks. [ Remember to refill the holes - for newbees ]
Or you can do as you suggested, just airlayer, as long as it is not breaking any environmental laws.

So what if Joe average Japanese doesn't want to do Bonsai, bonsai tends to hold more on cerebral folk, and they will keep it alive.
In ancient China, I guess bonsai died out???

It is not numbers that matter in Bonsai, just a willingness to grow and relax, as hobbies offer.
AND you can still push yourself to the max.

NO Bonsai in Japan is not in trouble, just the business men who want to work it.Opportunists.
Which is what I told you already.
Laters.
Khaimraj

Businessmen are not oppotunists. you also said your parents are into "oil Business" and became rich in it..are they oppotunists as well?. you see, businessmen are wise, smart and cunning people and know the market. they know where to put their investments. If one place is stagnant, for example bonsai business they will find new market for it. and I talked to them directly, even up to now. Businesses and economics my friend is an indicator of the real time situation in one place.

BTW, you can ask other people if you want to, they are members of this forum and are "real bonsai masters" who traveled around the world more frequent than I am, I can PM you their names and asked them politely. We just talked about this topic just a couple of months ago, It seems they viewed it that way too....and they are not Japanese businessmen..  

regards,
jun  

...And oh. I am a businessman too and most people in this forum are businessmen too. most of us don't like being called an oppurtunists, because we are not.

   

L.L.B,

my dad worked in the oil for Shell,Esso, Texaco , Tesoro and Amoco, he started as a pipe checker, which means he checked the pipelines or leaks, lowest job on totem pole. He saved enough to get a diploma out of Texas, to become a driller, he was not a very bright man, but could work very hard. The government took 55 % of his earnings in Taxes, and he lucked out because in the late 70's oil prices rose and Trinidad rode along. We have only 0.5 % of the world's oil resources, and to enter OPEC you have to have 1%, so Venezuela took us along.

He became so depressed because he was just a hardworker, he drank himself to death at 56 years of age. He was a very honest, strict and hardworking man.

My mother was a manager's secretary, basic salary. Got up at 4.00 a.m in the morning to tend to the family and then go to work. They lucked out with the oil prices.
They were not business folk.

My uncle worked for Barclay's as did his sister my aunt, he was a manager,then something further, my aunt was a supervisor.
All hardworking folk. My grandfather from China, ran a dry good's store, he was a hard worker, but in Monkey Town, Barrackpoore, he had the reputation of being an honest and upright man.
Hope that helps.

My point is Bonsai works perfectly for folk who are willing to adapt, and don't have a lot to spend or don't want to.
I am however seeing a great deal of teaching to sell to.
That is opportunistic, it is not genuine business and it will fail.
Failed down here already.
Laters.
Khaimraj

Ok, this is where I'll stop. I have said enough of my point.

...and that is not what you have told me a long time ago. It is a completely different story. 

The summary of my response to your question- Changes in bonsai is for the good/better of things but like anything else changes is not always perfect...it doesn't have to be.

regards,
jun  

L.L.B,

my family life is not really for the Internet, and back then I didn't know you very well.
Later.
Khaimraj

L.L.B,

I start these conversations to help others get past the winter blah, blahs.

Unfortunately, what happens with newbees, is they want instant results, and that is where the problem starts. Instead of asking the elder heads how did they get past that stage, they just rush in.

On our side we suggest, a ficus for 6 months, and then if you last, and want to show off, buy a few bonsai.
We try to get them past the collecting stage simply because, most of the collected die, due to our clay soils, and lack of roots or ignorance of how plants grow.Plus it is illegal for many areas.

Unfortunately we have a a good many who see Bonsai as sales and that causes even more problems. One example is someone who peddles less than pencil thick things for hefty prices and usually there is a sucker or two every so many months.

Trying to guide those new to Bonsai past these stages can be a pain.

There are many personality problems to be dealt with, and if the newbee is willing to talk, we can get past the situation, and not a lot of cash will be wasted.

A Potted Tree would be as a diamond rare and extremely expensive. A bonsai is free or very affordable,
There are always two extremes in the world of luxuries.
Old money does and the less fortunate try to copy. Hence my mentioning the car example.
All of the other points are linked as above.

So in getting someone to settle with the 3 to 5 years of watering, time is taken to explain and explore, why get into bonsai.

For me it has always been a way to relax.

How did I get past the first stage.
Well, I tried planting the Malpighia e. I have abundantly in the back yard in yellow clay which is our soil. Follwed with a gift of a poui.
Had those poor things for about a year in that clay, and we had to move to the US.
I smuggled over the poui, it was about 4" tall. The rooster next door ate it when I went to Philadelphia.

In Philadelphia, I got bagged soil and grew a few seeds, and things from Lafayette [ back yard ].
Had contact with an exhibition of Mr.Rosades, and visited his place. Got gifts and bought 2 small pots, and a magazine by Mr. Valavanis.

Art training is a balm, and allowed me to return to Lafayette, and for 3 months, I ordered pre-bonsai from a mail order company, also bought some cheap pots.
Got a phyto and took all of the plants home.

Grew for a year, met a great Bonsai buddy R.S, left some plants with him, and went to Italy.

Italy, found Innocenti's, and many Chinese folk selling Chinese work and if you bought something would also talk. Bought and trained whilst in Florence. Zelkova 10 years from seed, a fat dwarf-like pomegranate and a beautiful cedar of Lebanon.
Phyto again and went home after 3 years. Gave away the zelkova, punica and cedrus to S.B, and a mugho I had as a Christmas tree.

Home, R.S. had turned my 3" Malpighia e. into a monster, and I was back to growing again.
More copies of Mr. Valavanis's magazine, and an introduction to Japanese masters via the Japanese Embassy.
Help from the Chinese Embassy, and more gifts.

I never actually went through the having a finshed Bonsai bit, probably because I was actively teaching Art.
I just did. I sold 3 trees and my Classical Bonsai of Japan book, to get money to start a partnership in Bees/Honey.
Just kept on doing.
A good friend repurchased the book some years ago, so I have another copy.

I have always had a love of reading Classical Literature [ European and Chinese ]
Stones show up in certain tales, and the reason for why.
I tried to model my life after what was projected back then of the Chinese Literati.
Stones gain their value from memories, and only a few are really needed.
[ see World within Worlds for some beautiful stones.]

I also bought 3 stands, from around 1970, heavy woods / unstained, just varnished. Antique shop in Livorno.

Anyhow, I avoided the $$$ of Bonsai by simply doing and reading.
Later.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:L.L.B,

my family life is not really for the Internet, and back then I didn't know you very well.
Later.
Khaimraj

Well,

I didn't asked for your family story then,,,you volunteered to tell your story. For what ever purpose I do not know. Remember those email you said people are sending against me,,,none of it is true as well. Did I believe you then? No I did not. You also told me many lies then. You keep on telling many things that you retract afterwards. Why would people believe in your seemingly wise words?

BTW, did you really ever went to Europe to study art? hehe.


There is no point in discussing things with you then, it would be too dangerous..

People,
Even in the Internet forum, some form of truth should be uphold. but members should be aware of whom to believe. I have said it many times here. Do not believe many of the things/advice coming from people in the forum. Some people will feed you lies and would pretend and would sound like an expert on things, some would even show their resume full of lies. they would not pay any consequence if you follow that person's advice and you or your tree went on the wrong direction. We have seen here many people who just disappear and leave after such event. and many will return assuming new identity.
...When in doubt always asked them politely for the photo of their works. That is the only way to check their credentials.

Later,
jun  

Sadly,
L.L.B,

as I politely remind you, I spoke to you about certain things in confidence.

Wouldn't the words ------------ I didn't know you very well back then ----- be self explanatory????????????

You know I have responded to all your emotional posts with examples and logic, so I must conclude you are once again playing with me.    

Bonsai, is different from Fine Art. Fine Art has traditional rules, this is why Wet Canvas, is over 200,000 strong and vibrant, and not falling to pieces as folk move onto Facebook for just about anything else.
Plus, climate zones, rainfall, humidty, strength of the sun comes into play, it is difficult to say who is ignorant or well experienced, in Bonsai. Additionally, some folk like simple styles, some like carving, some like .................
There are no hard and fast rules in Bonsai, which can be frustrating.
Later.
Khaimraj

This thread is getting way too personal and as a result well off the original point. I am not going to lock it out or remove it or any other such action but I do feel there are things being said that are little other than a private conversation. Can we get it back on to some semblance of a debate or else just let it rest please?