Shohin size

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Shohin size

Post  Peter E. on Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:19 pm

I have a White Pine that i have been working on for a couple of years and was wondering ?
What classification does the tree sit in ?



It measures;
Pot height 4.25"
Width 12"

I know that for "shohin" the tree has to be under 10" but what restrictions are there on widths ?.

Peter E.
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Re: Shohin size

Post  fiona on Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:19 am

There are no hard and fast size restrictions. Essentially, if it looks and feels like a shohin then it's a shohin. I'd say that one does Very Happy 

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Re: Shohin size

Post  marcus watts on Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:06 am

As above,

If you have to make the tree fit into a strict set of show or club rules the tree measurements are always for the tree from soil level to apex / furthest foliage if cascading etc, it looks from the picture the total width of tree and pot is 12", trunk base to foliage tip looks a bit less to me so visually it looks shohin and chances are in black and white it is too.

nice tree

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Re: Shohin size

Post  Todd Ellis on Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:10 pm

Nice shohin pine!

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Re: Shohin size

Post  Peter E. on Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:30 pm

The only problem with bonsai size is when you are growing to show trees.
I have been informed by one of my European bonsai mates that this tree would be classed as " Kifu". A new Large Shohin class.
It seems that they use a max of 21cm/8" for Shohin. The last i heard, we use 25cm/10".
Over the years i have had to change trees to try and fit a size for showing but now i am getting fed up with the "rules" constantly changing.
Although i do not show on a regular basis, i do grow to show, as i feel it raises your own standards.
If we are "In Europe" surely, we should adopt a standard size for trees in show to give the growers a modicum of chance, or is it that the professionals ,who have a much larger collection to call on are calling the shots.

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Re: Shohin size

Post  fiona on Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:23 pm

I'm sure you've already read the descriptions on websites such as Bonsai4me and Morten Albek's Shohin-bonsai europe, so I'll not quote them. But even these two state quite categorically that the classifications are not rigid. The best person to speak to about all this is Mark Cooper. Suffice it to say if you entered a tree similar to that in your picture into the British Shohin Association's show next March then it would be a shohin pure and simple. The only distinction we make is between shohin and mame.

Maybe I'm just becoming too cynical but I rather suspect that we are being led a merry dance with all these classifications especially when they appear in shows.


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Re: Shohin size

Post  Peter E. on Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:08 pm

fiona wrote:

Maybe I'm just becoming too cynical but I rather suspect that we are being led a merry dance with all these classifications especially when they appear in shows.  

This is my point !.

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Re: Shohin size

Post  marcus watts on Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:55 pm

hi peter,
if the pot is just over 4" high as you say the inner trunk to foliage tip measurements are nowhere near 12". I'd not worry about making any issues from the classifications and just enter the tree as part of a shohin display - it will be with several other trees too. My only feeling on combined shohin displays is that all the trees look better if they are in scale with each other - if this tree is noticeably larger than the others you intend using it will look wrong so that would be my only reason to chose another directional tree that is visually smaller. Personally i find single tree displays of shohin sized trees somewhat lost and insignificant when put in the large hall, large table scenario, but if the intended exhibit is a single tree display it probably is best to conform to the organisers rules - remember though that the organisers NEED our trees in order to put on their show, not the other way round.....so enter what you feel confident of and it is their loss if they turn you down.



cheers Marcus


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Re: Shohin size

Post  Peter E. on Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:16 pm

Thanks for the advice Marcus.

Peter E.
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Re: Shohin size

Post  William N. Valavanis on Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:27 pm

Beautiful bonsai, well done!   I like your tree, but personally do not think its a shohin bonsai because of the size. I would however display it in a show as a shohin bonsai. There are no strict rules for displaying shohin bonsai, even in Japan.

Personally I would change the display table if possible or at least center the container on the table top.

Keep up the good work.

Bill

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Re: Shohin size

Post  Peter E. on Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:44 pm

Wow !!
I am honoured.
Thank you Bill for your comments.
I am accepting that this tree is not a "Shohin".
Along with another 6 that I have been developing for the last 6 years.
I have also been advised that the tree should be placed centre of the table, but they did like the table.
Perhaps what I thought was a "Mame" will now become my only "SHOHIN". Cool 

Peter E.
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Re: Shohin size

Post  fiona on Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:55 am

But even Bill is making the point that your tree would not be turned away if entered in a Shohin exhibition.  Here are a couple of my own which are of roughly the same size as yours. I have entered them both for shows as Shohin with no comebacks and no quibbles and indeed the full cascade has won an award at a BSA show.   Drop Mark Cooper a PM and ask for his opinion as he is by far the expert in the UK.



  I have better pics of this one but this is the best I could find as I rushed out to work.

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