Draught – Draft – Wind

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Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  Guest on Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:58 pm

From “The Creative Art of Bonsai”.
I paraphrase: ”The Cedrus” ……. “tolerates wind, but not draughts.”

Can someone please define drought, draft and wind for me so that it differentiates the 3 in a way that applies to bonsai, for example. I can’t make any sense of it.

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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  0soyoung on Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:23 pm

Drought is dry soil/roots.

Draft is what the professional leagues do before the start of each season's training camp. It is beer that is drawn from a keg as opposed to from a can or bottle. It is the depth of a boat's/ship's keel below the water line. Loosely, the slow movement of cool air as in 'I feel a draft'. Otherwise no known direct applicability to bonsai even though one could envision speaking of the depth of a pot as its 'draft' while drinking a 'draft' (to end a personal drought) and feeling a 'draft' (brrr! though I suppose one might be fondling their draft and in that way feeling a draft).

Wind is movement of air generally associated with more rapid movement than with a draft. Encompasses other terms such as breeze or gale. On occasion one breaks wind but rarely ever breaks draft.

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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  fiona on Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:03 pm

I think he meant draught rather than drought. The spellings Draught and Draft are used interchangeably these days.
As Osoyoug points out, there are many different definitions of the word, but we are concerned with the one that is similar to wind.

A simple start point:

Wind is a natural phenomenon and is air movement classified according to its speed - e.g. breeze, gale, hurricane, typhoon. Wind causes leaf dessication (Drying out) on trees both in their natural setting and as bonsai with the obvious knock-on effect of them then not being able to carry out the necessary plant processes. I don't have a lot of bother with leaf burn owing to strong sunshine where I live, but I do need to make sure a lot of my trees are kept out of the direct path of the strong winds we get. Obviously some trees are better able to withstand wind (otherwise they wouldn't survive) and this is further reason why I am now concentrating on trees that grow naturally in my area as they are better able to tolerate my conditions.

A draft is a movement of colder air in an enclosed space. e.g. a draft coming in under a door or through an open window. They can be quite concentrated and can also be significantly lower than the ambient temperature. The obvious implication is for indoor bonsai where you might think you have it in its correct temperature setting but the draft is in fact damaging it. (again a dessicating effect but also taking it below its temperature range) Another example might be that you have sited your bonsai in what is ostensibly a nice warm sunny patio. If there is a constant draft hitting one area, the tree in that area might just suffer.

As to why a draft should be more detrimental to Cedrus than wind... I'd just be guessing but I'd think it is to do with the concentrated nature of the draft rather than more open nature of a wind.


Addendum: drafts can of course be currents of warmer air. I can only assume that that too will cause dessication.


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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  0soyoung on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:25 am

Scion wrote:From “The Creative Art of Bonsai”.
I paraphrase: ”The Cedrus” ……. “tolerates wind, but not draughts.”

Can someone please define drought, draft and wind for me so that it differentiates the 3 in a way that applies to bonsai, for example. I can’t make any sense of it.

Scion,

Rather than trying to decipher such non-sense, I think you will be better served referring to web resources such as UConn Plant Database. The note on Cedrus Atlantica culture, for example, is:

  • prefers moist, deep soils, but tolerant of dry, sandy soils
  • full sun is best
  • tolerant of pollution, urban conditions
  • difficult to transplant; best as container grown
  • needs protection from sweeping winds
  • will get considerable needle burn and injury during cold winters and when sited poorly in windy locations
  • Severely winterburned trees generally recover well if established



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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  JimLewis on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:56 am

OTOH . . . Presumably the excerpt from The Creative Art of Bonsai (not the best source for horticultural info) refers to its preferences in a bonsai pot.

The University of Connecticut database is unlikely to be a decent source of info on bonsai and undoubtedly refers to its preferences growing in the soil where its roots can run as long as they need to find water.

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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  0soyoung on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:31 am

JimLewis wrote:OTOH . . . Presumably the excerpt from The Creative Art of Bonsai (not the best source for horticultural info) refers to its preferences in a bonsai pot.

The University of Connecticut database is unlikely to be a decent source of info on bonsai and undoubtedly refers to its preferences growing in the soil where its roots can run as long as they need to find water.

Surely you are just being argumentative, Jim.

Read the UConn list of culture notes. It is easy to infer that cedrus atlantica is a pretty easy to grow, good in pot culture, "prefers" moister soil, and full sun, but protection from wind might be necessary.

Regardless, U Conn was just an example. Should Scion Google (substitute Bing or whatever search engine is preferred) the specie of interest, links to places like bonsai4me, evergreengardenworks, and bonsai forum threads will also appear. The resources are all superior to trying to decipher what is meant by draught/drought, draft, wind, and etc., which is my point (in sarcastic jest and all due seriousness).



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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  drgonzo on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:53 am

0soyoung wrote:
JimLewis wrote:OTOH . . . Presumably the excerpt from The Creative Art of Bonsai (not the best source for horticultural info) refers to its preferences in a bonsai pot.

The University of Connecticut database is unlikely to be a decent source of info on bonsai and undoubtedly refers to its preferences growing in the soil where its roots can run as long as they need to find water.

Surely you are just being argumentative, Jim.

Thats the thing. When you have a text written specifically for Bonsai, as above, some may decide it's "not the best source for horticultural info" and when, on the other hand, you offer an academic Horticultural source some may rule it "unlikely to be a decent source of info on bonsai"

I fear you'll never win.
-Jay

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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  Guest on Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:03 am

0soyoung wrote:Drought is dry soil/roots.

Draft is what the professional leagues do before the start of each season's training camp. It is beer that is drawn from a keg as opposed to from a can or bottle. It is the depth of a boat's/ship's keel below the water line. Loosely, the slow movement of cool air as in 'I feel a draft'. Otherwise no known direct applicability to bonsai even though one could envision speaking of the depth of a pot as its 'draft' while drinking a 'draft' (to end a personal drought) and feeling a 'draft' (brrr! though I suppose one might be fondling their draft and in that way feeling a draft).

Wind is movement of air generally associated with more rapid movement than with a draft. Encompasses other terms such as breeze or gale. On occasion one breaks wind but rarely ever breaks draft.

That’s a long-winded explanation so please step in and shut the door - you’re created quite a draft. Laughing Laughing Laughing

JimLewis wrote:OTOH . . . Presumably the excerpt from The Creative Art of Bonsai (not the best source for horticultural info) refers to its preferences in a bonsai pot.

The University of Connecticut database is unlikely to be a decent source of info on bonsai and undoubtedly refers to its preferences growing in the soil where its roots can run as long as they need to find water.

I think that I must agree on both points that neither source is written in blood.


0soyoung wrote:
Should Scion Google (substitute Bing or whatever search engine is preferred) the specie of interest, links to places like bonsai4me, evergreengardenworks, and bonsai forum threads will also appear. The resources are all superior to trying to decipher what is meant by draught/drought, draft, wind, and etc., which is my point .......

True, but understanding the difference in those 3 (or is it 2?) notions is an advantage for further use in all plants, not merely in the case of the Cedrus.

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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  Guest on Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:13 am

fiona wrote:I think he meant draught rather than drought. The spellings Draught and Draft are used interchangeably these days.
As Osoyoug points out, there are many different definitions of the word, but we are concerned with the one that is similar to wind.

A simple start point:

Wind is a natural phenomenon and is air movement classified according to its speed - e.g. breeze, gale, hurricane, typhoon. Wind causes leaf dessication (Drying out) on trees both in their natural setting and as bonsai with the obvious knock-on effect of them then not being able to carry out the necessary plant processes. I don't have a lot of bother with leaf burn owing to strong sunshine where I live, but I do need to make sure a lot of my trees are kept out of the direct path of the strong winds we get. Obviously some trees are better able to withstand wind (otherwise they wouldn't survive) and this is further reason why I am now concentrating on trees that grow naturally in my area as they are better able to tolerate my conditions.

A draft is a movement of colder air in an enclosed space. e.g. a draft coming in under a door or through an open window. They can be quite concentrated and can also be significantly lower than the ambient temperature. The obvious implication is for indoor bonsai where you might think you have it in its correct temperature setting but the draft is in fact damaging it. (again a dessicating effect but also taking it below its temperature range) Another example might be that you have sited your bonsai in what is ostensibly a nice warm sunny patio. If there is a constant draft hitting one area, the tree in that area might just suffer.

As to why a draft should be more detrimental to Cedrus than wind... I'd just be guessing but I'd think it is to do with the concentrated nature of the draft rather than more open nature of a wind.

Would it be fair then to say that uniform TEMPERATURE (with gradual, steady change) is the A to Z in this case? That wind doesn’t necessarily affect the temperature of the plant’s environment (being out of doors) whereas a draught would cause sudden changes in temperature creating a series of “shocks” to the plant? But then the Cedrus is an outdoor plant, so draughts (an inherently indoor phenomenon) oughtn’t even be relevant. No? scratch

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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  fiona on Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:32 am

My understanding (and that's all it is - my reasoning out and I'm not holding it up as scientific "proof") is that the major factor with wind is the ability to cause physical damage such as uprooting or branch breakage, but also to cause physiological damage principally through dessication and it consequent effects. Trees in the wild have a greater chance of "repair" in that their roots have the ground in which to seek out the water they need to recover. (For that reason I was a bit disappointed to see Jim being shot down in flames for voicing that very fact) Bonsai trees in pots are essentially at our mercy - if a period of a drying wind follows on from a period where the owner hasn't watered the tree, then you have trouble.

Regarding drafts, I think I was actually saying that while we associate them with indoors, that is not exclusive and my draft patio scenario was the outdoor example. But I suspect there may be an answer in the temperature shock of a draft being a concentrated burst of colder air in an otherwise warm environment, but this is also combined with dessication factor.

On the issue of dessication, most sources I have now consulted are all singing from the same song sheet regarding dessication in trees in nature. Here is one example with a couple of points highlighted that would undoubtedly be transferrable to bonsai care:

Source: USDA Natural Resources Conservation ervice, Montana. LINK HERE
Protecting Plants from Desiccation
Desiccation occurs when the rate of water loss (transpiration) from the plant exceeds its ability to extract moisture from the soil. Numerous factors contribute to desiccation including temperature, wind speed, sun exposure, soil texture, available soil moisture, and stage of plant growth...

Water in anticipation of high plant demands.
Saturate the soil in the fall and early winter in order to reduce winter desiccation.
Use anti-desiccant spray when planting seedlings, transplanting nursery stock, or in the fall to protect exposed plants. Install landscape fabric and mulch to conserve soil moisture.
Use shingles or screens on the south and west sides of newly planted seedlings to reduce wind desiccation and sun exposure.
If possible, do not locate plants in exceptionally windy areas unless temporary protection is provided.


A wee story to finish: some years ago when I worked for them, Glasgow Parks Department wrote off £2000 worth of younger (15 year old) beech trees by transporting them on the back of an open vehicle with no protection other than burlap sacks round their rootballs. The act of driving at 50miles an hour for twenty miles completely dried them out beyond repair. That's the damage wind can do.


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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  Guest on Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:49 am

Thank you for a thorough lesson, Fiona! I’m ready to sit for the exam now.

So it’s down to the conviction that the Cedrus (as bonsai) is more likely to suffer desiccation from draughts than from out-right wind, in “normal” situations. Draughts affecting available temperature and wind affecting stability of the plant and even more in the case of unprotected, high speed drives up the M8.

Tons of thanks,
Franz-Erik “Scion” Very Happy

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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  fiona on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:08 pm

Scion wrote:... even more in the case of unprotected, high speed drives up the M8.

Having just spent nearly an hour stuck on it because of Christmas shopper traffic heading to Glasgow, I should say avoid the M8 at any time, not just when it's windy. Wink


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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  Guest on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:19 pm

I'll make sure to stay clear of it, thanks. Smile

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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  fiona on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:12 pm

One thing this whole thread goes to show is that sometimes bonsai books are unhelpful because of the blanket statements that are made without any real attempt to explain. I sometimes feel this is really just because the author has merely copied the "information" from somewhere else without really understanding and/or attempting to explain it. Somewhere down the line that can only lead to misinformation. The example Franz-Erik (Scion) gave is a good case in point of a bit of "information" that is actually quite useless because of its lack of clarity.

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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  Guest on Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:37 pm

Too true.

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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  marcus watts on Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:05 pm

if you go back and read the variuos bonsai books that end up sitting on our shelves a high number are full of poor information. i really looked at many of my earlier books and at the trees the authors were using as examples of their craft - very poor, along with the theories and instructions ........it is good to see just how far the hobby has come in 15 years.

can you have a draught outside ?? - and as the cedar sits outside how on earth can a credible writer claim it wont like a draught. it sounds like putting words on paper for the sake of it to me................

well found Franz-Erik - i bet we can find lots more too Very Happy

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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  fiona on Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:31 pm

Not "outside" as in an open space I'd think, but a space such as a patio or courtyard which may be partially enclosed such as mine is. We get most distinct drafts.


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Re: Draught – Draft – Wind

Post  Guest on Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:14 am

marcus watts wrote: i really looked at many of my earlier books and at the trees the authors were using as examples of their craft - very poor, along with the theories and instructions ........

Yes, I've also found that to be true. There's one book in particular (it would be bad taste of me to name it) that boasts the most horrific examples of "bonsai", some of them no more than a sapling stuck into the middle of a bonsai pot and others sporting branches that cross the trunk "back and forth" in a dreadful, untidy mess.

marcus watts wrote: it sounds like putting words on paper for the sake of it to me................

.... as stating one needs a "chopstick" (full stop) in the bonsai arsenal, rather than any suitable object that'll do the job.

marcus watts wrote: i bet we can find lots more too

LOTS more. Neutral

What is revealing are bonsai "how to" videos. In those, at least, you can see by method and result that the buffoons don't know what they're doing, and the ones who do are a sheer delight to watch. But from books (as far as method goes) you can only take their word for it.

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