germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

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germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  pmedicate on Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:13 am

I just have some kumquat seedlings, they are like orange citrus plants. I want to get a thick trunk as quickly as possible, how can I achieve that? Should I put it in a large pot or start small and keep repotting it when it needs to be? I'm not sure if putting citrus seedlings in a large pot will cause any type of issues like over watering or something. Can someone please help me. Thanks.

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  JimLewis on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:24 pm

In (I assume) Michigan you best bet will be a fairly large, very shallow pot with LOTS of drainage holes and fast draining soils. Fertilize frequently, and well, though I'm not sure it will do much good over the winter.

With a citrus, indoors, I suspect that "quickly as possible" will be a pretty long time -- depending on how large a tree you want.

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  pmedicate on Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:23 pm

Hi Jim, I have a room with hid lighting in it for my plants. These seedlings are going through a summer phase indoors right now and wont see winter till next year. Are you telling me to put them in shallow pots because the roots tend to grow outwards instead of down? My ultimate goal is something like in the picture.

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  pmedicate on Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:27 pm

pmedicate wrote:Hi Jim, I have a room with hid lighting in it for my plants. These seedlings are going through a summer phase indoors right now and wont see winter till next year. Are you telling me to put them in shallow pots because the roots tend to grow outwards instead of down? So a 5 gallon bucket wouldnt be an ideal pot? My ultimate goal is a small bonsai with as big as a trunk I can get.

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  JimLewis on Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:25 pm

Drainage is the main idea. A deep pot would do, but it usually takes more soil, and you will eventually want a shallow root system. A wide, shallow pot that gives the tree some lateral room to grow would be MY preference. I can't say how wide and how shallow because I have no idea how large or small your "seedlings" are.

BUT, in a wide shallow pot you need lots of drainage holes because water drains much more slowly from shallow pots. Plan on transplanting to a larger wide-shallow pot in a year or two and as many repetitions as it takes to get things where you want them. It will be a long, slow process.

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  pmedicate on Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:30 pm

That was very helpful. I know what kind of pots I need to buy now. For drainage, I have added lots of perlite to my soil. It will be a very slow process indeed. I have seen some old kumquat bonsais with thin trunks. My guess is that they were kept in small pots the whole time. Hopefully if I pot them in large pots with good drainage they will get big quicker.

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:37 am

You can also bud graft low down on to a very large of trunk nursery citrus tree. Or have someone do it for you.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  0soyoung on Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:29 am

pmedicate wrote:I just have some kumquat seedlings, they are like orange citrus plants. I want to get a thick trunk as quickly as possible, how can I achieve that? Should I put it in a large pot or start small and keep repotting it when it needs to be? I'm not sure if putting citrus seedlings in a large pot will cause any type of issues like over watering or something. Can someone please help me. Thanks.

After potting as Jim suggests, keep the pot tilted (30 degrees, say) and rotate it every week or two. Gravitropism induces a reaction tending to make the stem grow upright. In this case (angiosperm) the reaction wood will form on the top-side of the tilted trunk. You want to rotate it every now and then to grow tension wood evenly around the trunk. You could hang a weight on it to increase the flex and hence stimulus to grow tension wood. Alternatively you could guy the trunk to one side of the pot and then move this guy around the periphery. This will make the trunk thicken faster than otherwise and is a large part of the 'magic' of growing trees in the ground (i.e., the roots keep it firmly attached to the ground while the wind flexes the trunk around, stimulating reaction wood growth.


Last edited by 0soyoung on Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling errors)

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  pmedicate on Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:43 am

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:You can also bud graft low down on to a very large of trunk nursery citrus tree. Or have someone do it for you.
Later.
Khaimraj

Thats a great idea. I never even heard of bud grafting until I just did a little research on it. I'll find the kumquat I want and bud graft it onto a big citrus plant. Do I chop off the top of the citrus plant where I dont want? Do I do that before or after the grafting is complete?

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:23 am

Hello Pmedicate,

if you have never done this before, get someone who has to do it for you.
Come back and show us a bud sprouting.
The person doing the graft will tell you when to cut what and when.
Best of luck.
Khaimraj

* P.S I will be having a friend do a bud graft for me as well with a Fortunella h.

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  pmedicate on Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:02 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Hello Pmedicate,

if you have never done this before, get someone who has to do it for you.
Come back and show us a bud sprouting.
The person doing the graft will tell you when to cut what and when.
Best of luck.
Khaimraj

* P.S I will be having a friend do a bud graft for me as well with a Fortunella h.

I'm happy to hear that you are interested in fortunella hindsii as well. Bud grafting looks very easy, just cut an upside down T on the root stock then insert a bud from a hindsii and wrap it up. Youtube has a lot of videos on how to do it. I have been looking for a hindsii for over a few years and actually gave up a year ago. A buddy of mine went to temple and what do you know, they had a few trees with a lot of hindsii kumquats on it. I went back there to grab a couple kumquats for myself. It is going to be a couple years until I see any fruit because my kumquats are from seed. Although I could go back and cut a piece of the branch to graft, I'm not sure it will work because where I am its really cold and the kumquat is bare, no leaves or anything. Maybe in the summer I'll go back and cut a piece so I can try to graft it, hopefully they still have the plant. Thank you for the suggestion.

Do you know if ALL hindsii kumquats will fruit from seed or is it just some that will?
Can you bud graft a kumquat if the bud is coming from a tree that is over wintering?

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:39 pm

Hello Pmedicate,

this is Fortunella hindsii
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Rz6FVtVBKFs/UJF0urD72AI/AAAAAAAAAdY/iR6Iu5vzaj0/s1600/fortu10.jpg

Info and image on the rights side of the screen.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/113660/

I am in the tropics and from seed this shrub usually fruits within a year or two. The trunk does however take a while to thicken.
So can't offer any information on grafting in cold weather.
They also grow from cuttings.
Drop by in late spring and let us know how the grafting went.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  pmedicate on Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:11 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Hello Pmedicate,

this is Fortunella hindsii
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Rz6FVtVBKFs/UJF0urD72AI/AAAAAAAAAdY/iR6Iu5vzaj0/s1600/fortu10.jpg

Info and image on the rights side of the screen.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/113660/

I am in the tropics and from seed this shrub usually fruits within a year or two. The trunk does however take a while to thicken.
So can't offer any information on grafting in cold weather.
They also grow from cuttings.
Drop by in late spring and let us know how the grafting went.
Later.
Khaimraj

Sorry for bothering you but I'm not clear on your answer. Will most or all seedlings fruit or have kumquats in the future given the right conditions? I keep reading that with kumquat seedlings some will never fruit while some will. I dont mind waiting more than a few years for it to fruit, I just want to know if I should keep more than one or two hindsii seedlings because I have a lot. Each seed sprouted at least 3 seedlings, so now I have about 20 seedlings. They share a 1000w hid light with my other plants indoors and its pretty warm in there. They will only go outdoors in the summer, other than that its indoors under bright light. Thanks again.

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  Leo Schordje on Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:15 am

Many citrus come true from seed. Many (but not all) produce can produce seed even when not pollenated. These seeds are essentially identical to the mother plant. Apomictic is the term for producing seed with a full normal set of chromosomes, without pollen from another plant. So it would be a reasonable guess that your Kumquats will produce fruit, and will be nearly identical to the 'mother' plant that was the source of seed. If the flowers were pollenated, depending on what other citrus was open at that time, you could have a hybrid, but I would say the odds are very high that you will have true to type Kumquats, that will be virtually identical to the original source plant. It will be a number of years before they fruit, but if the plants bulk up quickly in your HID lights, they could bloom in as little as 5 years or so. Fun project, if you are not in a hurry.

Andy Smith wrote an article about beating trunks with a hammer to try to get them thicker. He does advise caution to not get too vigorous with "laying on the beating". This trick won't be appropriate until you are in your third year or so. Too small a trunk and a hammer will just crush it.

http://www.goldenarrowbonsai.com/goldenarrowbonsai.com/Stories_Pg6_files/Beatit.htm

I have taken to flexing the base of trunks of seedlings as I walk by, or when I am checking on them. (only seedlings I am trying to get to trunk up) This would mimic to some degree the tree being bent down by the wind.

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:41 am

No bother Pmedicate,

I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same shrub. There are edible Kumquats and then there is the Fortunella h.

If you are worried about never getting fruit, simply get a bud from one of the temple trees and graft onto a larger citrus type.
I asked a friend who does grafting, he said that normally you would need to graft into an actively growing rootstock.

Looks like early summer.

Please come back and keep the group informed and do a few other trees/shrubs as bonsai, get some needed practice.
Stay Well.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  pmedicate on Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:46 pm

Leo Schordje wrote:Many citrus come true from seed. Many (but not all) produce can produce seed even when not pollenated. These seeds are essentially identical to the mother plant. Apomictic is the term for producing seed with a full normal set of chromosomes, without pollen from another plant. So it would be a reasonable guess that your Kumquats will produce fruit, and will be nearly identical to the 'mother' plant that was the source of seed. If the flowers were pollenated, depending on what other citrus was open at that time, you could have a hybrid, but I would say the odds are very high that you will have true to type Kumquats, that will be virtually identical to the original source plant. It will be a number of years before they fruit, but if the plants bulk up quickly in your HID lights, they could bloom in as little as 5 years or so. Fun project, if you are not in a hurry.

Andy Smith wrote an article about beating trunks with a hammer to try to get them thicker. He does advise caution to not get too vigorous with "laying on the beating". This trick won't be appropriate until you are in your third year or so. Too small a trunk and a hammer will just crush it.

http://www.goldenarrowbonsai.com/goldenarrowbonsai.com/Stories_Pg6_files/Beatit.htm

I have taken to flexing the base of trunks of seedlings as I walk by, or when I am checking on them. (only seedlings I am trying to get to trunk up) This would mimic to some degree the tree being bent down by the wind.

Thanks for the info and advice. I'm going to just keep 2 of the seedlings I have and give the rest away. I have been doing something like this technique for years on some of the plants I grow. To thicken my trunks I use oscillating fans to mimic the wind and squeeze/pinch the trunk of it. In this case, beating it with a hammer or slapping it around. Also a bigger root system would make a bigger trunk faster so I add lots of beneficial bacteria to the soil and use root stimulators. Not sure if it will work on this hindsii kumquat I have.

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Re: germed fortunella hindsii kumquat seeds, how to get a thick trunk fast?

Post  pmedicate on Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:51 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:No bother Pmedicate,

I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same shrub. There are edible Kumquats and then there is the Fortunella h.

If you are worried about never getting fruit, simply get a bud from one of the temple trees and graft onto a larger citrus type.
I asked a friend who does grafting, he said that normally you would need to graft into an actively growing rootstock.

Looks like early summer.

Please come back and keep the group informed and do a few other trees/shrubs as bonsai, get some needed practice.
Stay Well.
Later.
Khaimraj

Thanks I will try grafting it in the summer. I'll post pictures once its grafted.

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