What defines a True Bonsai Master?

Hello to All,

I was quietly asked to see if more life could be given to this discussion,and hopefully, " I am not here for your entertainment,."

So anyhow, here goes. Two points.

Firstly, my Fine Art training [ The term, Fine is used when you are being trained to paint like Raphael,Titian, Da Vinci or sculpt like Michelangelo and so on ] was apprenticeship based, but not as true as say in the time of Mantegna, or Van Eyck.The idea is simple, you must first respect the abilities of your teacher / guide / instructor, personality is another cup of tea.

Starting off in Bonsai, the normal situation on my side is after reading a book, seeing a t.v. documentary or other on Bonsai, you try on your own, and also look for like minds.The basic stuff, keeping the tree alive, learning to clip, wire, and repot,is what you are after.
Normally, you will find someone who knows more than you, and some form of respect takes place.

Humans, can take years for self discovery, or just simple discovery, but they can amass experience very rapidly. So someone can struggle for years with basics, master them, and an observer can learn it all in a few weeks.
If you are not aware of the above, and go with the flow, disrespect soon comes along.Especially if you had to pay for the person's time and attention.

Secondly. Due to mostly books written in the 50' to 70's hobbys were projected as possible paying occupations.So anyone taking up Bonsai, if they cannot be patient enough for a seed to grow, usually goes after the big trunks, pay or dig from the wild, pots cost, tools cost and for most,soil costs.
Lessons from a more experienced person will cost in some form.
So you are now out of pocket change, what do you do, well, you start some form of practice to get back your $$$$$.
AND very often you pay --------------------- a master.

Then you get mad [ or your spouse does.]

Just to crow a little, I can grow from seed, make my own compost, get my other inorganics for free and can if I choose to make even the most complicated stoneware or porcelain or earthenware or even other clay body and cement pots.
So my investment is very, very low. Additionally, since I was so visually trained, I can grasp ideas and visual information very rapidly.
Thus Bonsai has for me remained, a love of trees, as I grew up in a forest.
If I ever taught / helped / guided / whatever, I did it for free.
In fact the only time I ever asked for $$$, was when the newly formed local Bonsai society asked me to do a demo., which I considered a waste of time, and the charge was just to get rid of the folk.

Bonsai comes naturally to very few, most kill trees, and are soon gone, especially the ones who seek to impress with their lack of skill.
Later.
Khaimraj [ Loki ]

*Yes, books are also a large pleasureable cost.

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Hello to All,

I was quietly asked to see if more life could be given to this discussion,and hopefully, " I am not here for your entertainment,."

So anyhow, here goes. Two points.

Firstly, my Fine Art training [ The term, Fine is used when you are being trained to paint like Raphael,Titian, Da Vinci or sculpt like Michelangelo and so on ] was apprenticeship based, but not as true as say in the time of Mantegna, or Van Eyck.The idea is simple, you must first respect the abilities of your teacher / guide / instructor, personality is another cup of tea.

Starting off in Bonsai, the normal situation on my side is after reading a book, seeing a t.v. documentary or other on Bonsai, you try on your own, and also look for like minds.The basic stuff, keeping the tree alive, learning to clip, wire, and repot,is what you are after.
Normally, you will find someone who knows more than you, and some form of respect takes place.

Humans, can take years for self discovery, or just simple discovery, but they can amass experience very rapidly. So someone can struggle for years with basics, master them, and an observer can learn it all in a few weeks.
If you are not aware of the above, and go with the flow, disrespect soon comes along.Especially if you had to pay for the person's time and attention.

Secondly. Due to mostly books written in the 50' to 70's hobbys were projected as possible paying occupations.So anyone taking up Bonsai, if they cannot be patient enough for a seed to grow, usually goes after the big trunks, pay or dig from the wild, pots cost, tools cost and for most,soil costs.
Lessons from a more experienced person will cost in some form.
So you are now out of pocket change, what do you do, well, you start some form of practice to get back your $$$$$.
AND very often you pay --------------------- a master.

Then you get mad [ or your spouse does.]

Just to crow a little, I can grow from seed, make my own compost, get my other inorganics for free and can if I choose to make even the most complicated stoneware or porcelain or earthenware or even other clay body and cement pots.
So my investment is very, very low. Additionally, since I was so visually trained, I can grasp ideas and visual information very rapidly.
Thus Bonsai has for me remained, a love of trees, as I grew up in a forest.
If I ever taught / helped / guided / whatever, I did it for free.
In fact the only time I ever asked for $$$, was when the newly formed local Bonsai society asked me to do a demo., which I considered a waste of time, and the charge was just to get rid of the folk.

Bonsai comes naturally to very few, most kill trees, and are soon gone, especially the ones who seek to impress with their lack of skill.
Later.
Khaimraj [ Loki ]

*Yes, books are also a large pleasureable cost.

LLB,
..sorry, I got lost in your thesis. So what is a "true Bonsai master"?---the gist will do for me if you won't mind.


The above "literature" is in the form of First-person narrative..........I am assuming something, but my fingers doesn't want to type it down in my keyboard. I might be wrong.


your LLB in the pacific,
jun

The definition of a Master [ in anything ] is supposed to be - someone everyone wants to EMULATE.

Emulate - try to equal or excel;imitate. [ Pocket Oxford 1984 edition.]

Sit back and drink in how many penjing/bonsai look like Mr.X's or Mr.Y's and so on.
Later.
Khaimraj

*When relating your personal experiences, first person is perhaps most sensible.

Sorry Bro. I am no master in Bonsai, just a happy hobbyist.
Stay well.
Khaimraj [ Loki ]

Whew! that's good to hear LLB.


There is always a danger in using the first-person narrative...when explaining things like this issue.




>>>>>>>remember folks-------------There is only one (1) "I" in the word--- bonsa"I " master......so be careful, lot of people wanted that single letter in that prestigious word.


regards,
jun (short name without the letter "I")

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:The definition of a Master [ in anything ] is supposed to be - someone everyone wants to EMULATE.

Emulate - try to equal or excel;imitate. [ Pocket Oxford 1984 edition.]

i really dont think every 'student' wants to equal or excel their chosen 'master'.....they want to learn and absorb a little of the persons experience and apply it to their own trees, life, hobby, whatever. in the eyes of a peer the master is the one they wish to learn from, so there can be many masters.................are they good enough for the title---that is totally in the hands of those they teach

for the individual teacher to decide to call themself a master..............that is the crock of Bullxxxx.

cheers Marcus

Marcus,

the statement is probably / possibly an extension of something from the past - it is a poor student that does not excel his teacher - and from a time when luxuries were for the very wealthy.

However,I do see a great many trees that show influences from acknowledged masters.

With trees based on what there is in nature [ so called - natural design ] it is [ at least for me ] impossible to copy someone else's tree,but I can understand the principles of natural design.I can work with that.

Money crossing hands tends to change everything.

AND as usual - what's the difference between ART and craft ----- money is paid for ART, craft ...well...............
Later.
Khaimraj

General comment -
*By putting the word "student" in a highlight, are we still talking about students or the problem we have today of so called -self taught -, who like to pretend, that they come from an area of the world where books or people do not exist???
Which is yet another crock and a form of high arrogance.
You meet a lot of that in the ART realm, by the way.

Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.

I'm with the anti - BS brigade.

The other day my house caught on fire, and eventually burnt to the ground. I was blissfully unaware of the event and returning home in the evening,recovering from the shock I sauntered over to my neighbour's residence.In a quiet voice I asked my neighbour of 20 years, why he neither called me, nor the fire fighters.

He responded with - Those who know do not speak. ------

Additionally a young man came to me with a dying plant in a pot.Just a looksee, showed the plant to be overwatered,I spoke up not and the plant died.

I guess sayings that are treated as blankets,can be problematic.

With that I end it all, by saying - only you can stop forest fires with full pails.
Ciao Tutti.
Khaimraj [ Loki ]

[quote="Rick36"]
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.
[quote]

this must have been in a cheap christmas cracker

in context it suggests those that really know about bonsai keep it to themselves and share with nobody (obviously not true)
then it suggests every person who tries to speak, teach or help knows absolutely nothing (again, in many cases totally wrong)

we pay to be taught to drive, for further detailed education and even to improve in bonsai - you dont just wake up one morning miraculously knowing how to repot a tree, wire and bend a trunk properly or how to choose the right soil for your tree - you must be taught and advised.


In an earlier post Fiona mentioned that a persons trees and collection should make no difference in what they advise others.....in some aspects this of course is totally true - every one of us can offer personal advice on asthetics, styling, how they see the future for a tree, which pot looks good etc - you dont even need to own a single bonsai tree to know what looks nice.

BUT....much of the crutial advice sought by others will often effect the health of a tree, its survival, even its long term future as a viable bonsai.....in these cases many E.experts are always happy to jump in (on all forums, on all subjects), sounding extremely convincing with their advice but is so many cases the writer has no hands on experience to match their advice. In cases like this you look at their trees - if you like what you see the advice is probably valid and proven...but if not you know you've just got another google/wikipedia/book E.expert.

i have seen advice to a beginner here on how to wire properly...........from a writer who had never wired a single branch at the time..........make your own minds up............. some of the repoting, critical pruning and tree 'rescue' advice given will result in weak trees, dead branches or totally dead trees at times..........

I guess i'm trying to say in a forum way.."buyer beware", but of course he who speaks knows nothing............and bonsai continues for many with their heads in the sand.

good topic this one,

marcus

Verse 56 The Tao Lao-Tzu. (Happy Christmas! )
Is your need to be seen to be right greater than your listener's need to hear what you say?

An interesting point, Rick, especially in this "cult of the celebrity" era we seem to be having enforced on us. At least (or at least at the moment) we have an element of being able to choose who we listen to or not and don't have "celebrity bonsaists" with agents and PR people telling us how wonderful they are.

marcus watts wrote:


... - you dont just wake up one morning miraculously knowing how to repot a tree, wire and bend a trunk properly or how to choose the right soil for your tree - you must be taught and advised.

Not entirely true Marcus,

...There is an innate talent in some very few people even in the bonsai community. These are the people who were never been taught or advised by anybody but can do good bonsai even in their first year in the hobby.

I was reading an article in AoB sometime ago about something like this topic. It was a very straight forward discussion on how and why some people that is into bonsai for almost their entire life cannot do good bonsai while some in their first few years can and learned easily. One of the most interesting aspect that was discussed is quite hard to shallow for most people---It is "talent", and the gist was that it cannot be learned no matter how long or how patient a person might be...it is said in the discussion that it is an innate ability unique to few individuals.

I was trying to locate the article, maybe some of you from AoB read about it.

regards,
jun

Jun,

I agree and that is true with any art. Sadly, some will never be great (or be an artist) no matter how long they are doing it.

That is the big difference between a craftsman and an artist.

Exactly my point - it can't be a self-appointed status, but we can all maximise our potential. (Sorry to but in!)

Poink88 wrote:Jun,

I agree and that is true with any art. Sadly, some will never be great (or be an artist) no matter how long they are doing it.

That is the big difference between a craftsman and an artist.

Yes, but that shouldn't be a discouragement for most people. bonsai should be seen as a hobby not a competition. If some people are very good at it, good for them and good for the bonsai community if they will share the knowledge and the trees...but either way it should give us happiness and not frustration.


regards,
jun

Fiona - Good points. I'm picking up that there are some artists to be admired, though - on this forum where there is so much debate on the principles, almost ethics sometimes, of the craft/art (?) there are some who command attention simply by their obvious love of what they do. They don't need promotion. In the end I guess we admire what and who we feel an affinity for - professionals and amateurs alike. (Now I'm shutting up and listening!)

jun wrote:

marcus watts wrote:


... - you dont just wake up one morning miraculously knowing how to repot a tree, wire and bend a trunk properly or how to choose the right soil for your tree - you must be taught and advised.

Not entirely true Marcus,

...There is an innate talent in some very few people even in the bonsai community. These are the people who were never been taught or advised by anybody but can do good bonsai even in their first year in the hobby.

I was reading an article in AoB sometime ago about something like this topic. It was a very straight forward discussion on how and why some people that is into bonsai for almost their entire life cannot do good bonsai while some in their first few years can and learned easily. One of the most interesting aspect that was discussed is quite hard to shallow for most people---It is "talent", and the gist was that it cannot be learned no matter how long or how patient a person might be...it is said in the discussion that it is an innate ability unique to few individuals.

I was trying to locate the article, maybe some of you from AoB read about it.

regards,
jun

Great discussion and good posts! And sorry to bud in, but reading the above post of Jun, reminded me of a famous heated discussion about "the need of talent in Bonsai" on a other (sadly no more) Bonsai forum (BT), way back in 2008! The debate got realy interesting and warm about the claim: that trough learning alone, everybody was able to become a great Bonsai artist (some here in IBC would call that a Master)! At one point I posted my thoughts about the supject and that post started to live a life of it's own! It was later used in at least two online articles written by others here!! But that is just fine by me, because that's how I was able to find it back to post it here! So here it is:

"Almost everybody can lurn and do Bonsai and can even become pretty good at it. Some of those will even become really good, trough hard work on their own or by studying with a (good) teacher. But only a few of those will create Bonsai Art on a really high level! And those few are the ones that, no matter by what way they got to that point, are gifted with talent to create beautiful Bonsai Art. By claiming that everybody is able to reach this level, you dismiss the difficulty of Bonsai as a Art Form!"

I thought that my post from way back could be of interest in this discussion? And I still stand by these word, even stronger than when I posted them for the first time! So thats why I posted it!

Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

OH YEAH!!! Bullseye Hans! that is the article I am talking about.

...and you are absolutely correct. that is one of my favorite discussion/article regarding bonsai. It will give a wake up call to most people claiming to be good, like I said here before, no BS required. in order to achieve the very high level of bonsai mastery and to create the finest among the fine creations. "TALENT" is the main ingredient, like what is said in that discussion it cannot be learned or taught. Thus, we may truly claim that bonsai is an art form...then and only then we can separate the real "Bonsai Master" from the other claimants...then perhaps the "word" will become sacred again for the bonsai community.


regards,
jun

Talent - 99 % perspiration - 1% inspiration.

The true difference is your experiences, and how you learn to apply them to what you do.

Additionally, skill at the highest level, will look magical to the average eye.

We have these types of discussions frequently on the Art forums, folk are always trying to understand why say Raphael or Titian are Old Masters and somehow Van Gogh or Manet don't quite reach that level.
You may be interested to know that it is easy for anyone to copy the style of an Impressionist,but somehow High Renaissance or Baroque work is very difficult to even come close to.
So most of the beginners run down the Impressionist, easiest to quickly achieve.

Yamadori versus grown from seed [ at 35 to 50 years of age ]

And so the conversation turned as the sun went down, and many fantasies were heard......
Khaimraj [ chief instigator ]

What defines a True Bonsai Master?

Naval gazing??????????????

Is this ever going to end? PULLEEZE!

Apoligies in advance, but . . . . . .

Hi Khaimray!

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote: Talent - 99 % perspiration - 1% inspiration.

The true difference is your experiences, and how you learn to apply them to what you do.

That's a good example of using your "talent"! Knowing when to apply your experience! Right?!

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote: Additionally, skill at the highest level, will look magical to the average eye.

You sound like one of those elite's that rated Mozart's work as music for the commoners! Boy were they wrong! And a other thing: just to be able to make Bonsai, that only looked magical to the average eye! Well that sounds just great to me, were do I sign up?! Modesty....that's a other one of those talent thingies!

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote: We have these types of discussions frequently on the Art forums, folk are always trying to understand why say Raphael or Titian are Old Masters and somehow Van Gogh or Manet don't quite reach that level.

Well sadly, as history has proven many times, not all genius or talented are recognized or understood in there time. But that goes for every expect in live! And this is why I dont believe in the title "master" of any thing! Good artist, sounds just fine by me!

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote: You may be interested to know that it is easy for anyone to copy the style of an Impressionist,but somehow High Renaissance or Baroque work is very difficult to even come close to.

Understandable, it takes a lot of talent to copy that style! You see the pattern here? Anyway, why would you want a talent to copy anything? I would use my talent to come up with something of my own!

Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

Hans,

it's Khaimraj - not Khaimray

No Hans, all I said was when the basics are mastered, to the level of instinctive, the results that follow with experience will look magical to the normal person [ average eye ]. It's a tie on to my first statement, on talent.
Not sure how the Mozart comment comes in????

Thanks for your thoughts.
Later.
Khaimraj

JimLewis wrote:

What defines a True Bonsai Master?

Naval gazing??????????????

Is this ever going to end? PULLEEZE!

Apoligies in advance, but . . . . . .

>>>Is this thread harming anybody? I don't think so.

If some folks don't like a particular thread like this, simply don't read it.

But please, don't discourage members to participate in any discussions on this forum unless it is turning out negative.

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Hans,

it's Khaimraj - not Khaimray

Thanks for your thoughts.
Later.
Khaimraj

Oooops! I do apologize Khaimraj! Lets just say that it was a hard evening and my eye finger coordination was a bit off! Just like most of my thought it seams!
I am off to bed! Good subject and posts so fare, no matter what Jim says!
And thanks for your input Khaimraj! See I got it good this time!
Cheers,
Hans van Meer.