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When to chop Maple?

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Rui Marques
Fore
William N. Valavanis
tap pi lu
Nemphis
Dave Murphy
Jesse
Poink88
lordy
Marty Weiser
drgonzo
bucknbonsai
Ryan
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Post  lordy Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:20 pm

looks good for the soil level. Now sit back and wait for buds. Check for moistness about 1/2 to 1 inch down. ( I would soak it good now and wait 3 or 4 days to check again) It wont use much water until it has leaves. No fertilizer for a month or so.
lordy
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Post  Ryan Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:56 am

Thanks Lordy.

At what temperatures should I bring this guy in at? We're supposed to get into the low 50s tonight, I assume that's probably fine?

Ryan
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Post  lordy Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:40 am

Unless we get some weird cold snap, I think you're good for the season. I have all mine out, and for good. Yours already leafed out so it's ready to be out for the duration. Put the pot on the ground so that IF we get a frost or freeze the ground will moderate the temp of the soil. I'd think you could put the pot in the sun so the roots would be warmer and possibly accelerate recuperation. The sun wont be of direct aid to the trunk but the warmth may also help it push buds quicker. Now comes the patience thing with bonsai.
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Post  Ryan Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:45 am

lordy wrote:Unless we get some weird cold snap, I think you're good for the season. I have all mine out, and for good. Yours already leafed out so it's ready to be out for the duration. Put the pot on the ground so that IF we get a frost or freeze the ground will moderate the temp of the soil. I'd think you could put the pot in the sun so the roots would be warmer and possibly accelerate recuperation. The sun wont be of direct aid to the trunk but the warmth may also help it push buds quicker. Now comes the patience thing with bonsai.

Forgot you were reasonably close to me. Good advice about the roots being warmed up. I'm hoping since it's in a black container that will help absorb the heat.

Ryan
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Post  Ryan Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:35 pm

I noticed a bud starting to push, right down where a branch used to be but was cut off. Hoping it continues to push Dance

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Post  Ryan Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:57 pm

Not sure if you can see the bud too clearly in this picture, but it's there all right....
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 00113

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Post  Ryan Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:20 pm

Now, could I rotate the tree back and allow that bud to be more on top so that it becomes the new leader? You can see where it is on the trunk in the attached picture below...
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 00612

Ryan
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Post  Nemphis Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:22 pm

Ryan wrote:Not sure if you can see the bud too clearly in this picture, but it's there all right....
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 00113

There is a green bug in your picture here.
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Post  Ryan Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:26 pm

Nemphis wrote:
Ryan wrote:Not sure if you can see the bud too clearly in this picture, but it's there all right....
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 00113

There is a green bug in your picture here.

Yep, that's just some harmless little bug.

Ryan
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Post  bucknbonsai Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:06 am

dont move anything...just leave it alone for now and for the rest of the year to. And besides why rush into it based off 1 bud, there will be more to come. If you it tilted it back, think about what that would do to your nebari, it would lift them up out of the soil at a weird angle.
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When to chop Maple? - Page 3 Empty Hi Ryal

Post  tap pi lu Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:49 am

When to chop Maple? - Page 3 01610
You can use the candle to melt to cover cuts. I think it is clean and not harm
How you think.
If it is me. I will not cut at that point that will cut at the point below it
tap pi lu
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Post  William N. Valavanis Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:11 pm

Just saw this thread and thought I'd share some things I've learned during the past 40 years of working with Trident maples.

First, the correct term is "drastic pruning" not trunk chop...

I have discovered, by trial and error, the best time to drastic prune deciduous species for bonsai is in early spring, just as the leaves are unfolding for best results. It's best to both prune the trunk AND the roots at the best time. This only shocks the plant once, rather than "playing with it" and shocking the plant again, later during the growing season (cutting it down further) or in the future when cutting the roots back further.

Looking at the photos of Ryan's Trident maple I have a few honest and constructive comments too:

1. Trunk was pruned at the correct height, using the correct horizontal cut for the trunk size. Was the trunk washed? It's important to completely wash the trunk to eliminate old bark to allow fresh air and light to stimulate new adventitious buds to grow. Don't worry if you see any buds there at that time, just wash.

2. The roots were NOT correctly pruned. Only the top surface roots should be allowed to remain, with any fibrous roots attached to them. ALL others should have been pruned. Then washed. The washing done was not complete. It's important when drastic pruning to eliminate ALL original soil, so a coarse soil with lists of air space will stimulate and encourage new fibrous roots.

3. The container is WAY too large and not necessary, in fact, it's not good to have all that extra soil around the small trunk. A training container about 1/3 of that size would be better. Depth is fine, deeper is better to encourage a more vigorous root growth.

4. I did not notice any tree wound covering over the two wounds, trunk and large surface root. It's important to completely seal to prevent the wound from drying out. Also, the surface root wound should be pointed at top to promote quicker covering of the callus tissue. This wound should completely cover by mid-summer if done correctly.

5. If this were my tree, I would start over again, it's only been a few weeks and unpotting, washing the trunk and roots, pruning the roots will not damage the tree if done now. Then I would pot the stump in a more coarse soil mixture (just mix in chicken grit or coarse turface) in a smaller container. A round shape is much better than a rectangular container for training.

Several years ago I published an entire issue of International BONSAI on drastic pruning including two articles from Japan and Walter Pall. Also included is my article on "Creating Deciduous Bonsai By Drastic Pruning" complete with photos of each step. Let me look up the issue. OK, found it. the issue on drastic pruning is International BONSAI 2002/NO. 3. Guess it was a bit longer than a few years ago, I'm getting old. Photos of my techniques will appear in my forthcoming book to be released next June 2013 at the International Bonsai Colloquium here in Rochester commemorating my 50 year of bonsai study.

Attached are a few photos of a few of my Trident maples created using the techniques I've described above.

I'd be very interested to see photos of the bonsai created by all the people offering their suggestions, opinions and theory for "Trunk Chopping"....

Bill

When to chop Maple? - Page 3 After-11
After root pruning Trident maple

When to chop Maple? - Page 3 A-few-10
A few growing seasons later

When to chop Maple? - Page 3 Triden10
Early spring, before trimming

When to chop Maple? - Page 3 Triden11
Autumn view

When to chop Maple? - Page 3 Triden12
Winter view

When to chop Maple? - Page 3 Triden13
Summer view

William N. Valavanis
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Post  bucknbonsai Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:14 pm

William thank you so much for this information, cant wait for your book, will it be available on the internet? Your excellent post brought up a few other questions, and Im sorry to bug you with them as I know your busy, its just nice to have such an experienced expert chime in on our posts.
1- How do you wash the trunk and roots? (scrub brush, soapy water?)
2- How do you tell when its done being washed?
3- Why is a round container better than a rectangle for growing out material? (wouldnt that just enable circling of roots)
4- Do you believe in root maker pots?
5- You say you do drastic pruning of top and bottom at same time in spring (I do as well), but say for whatever reason on
stuff in the ground you end up doing hard pruning in the spring of just the top without messing with the roots, will that
make the stump bleed out?
6- What is your opinion on callous tissue that results from spring drastic pruning of top growth (some people out there say
summer is better for the purposes of callous tissue)
thank you
bucknbonsai
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Post  Fore Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:00 pm

First off Bill, that's a beautiful Maple!! Very nice!

And I too am curious about how much to scrub the trunk.
Fore
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Post  Ryan Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:52 pm

I haven't done anything with this guy but let it recover. It's now got a second bud down on one of the roots, interesting.
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Post  Fore Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:59 pm

Mine is doing the exact same thing Ryan! Interesting how it'll go from a bare bark, to a tiny bump, to a bud in a relatively short period of time! Did you follow Bill's advice and repot it in a smaller container?
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Post  Ryan Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:45 pm

Fore wrote:Mine is doing the exact same thing Ryan! Interesting how it'll go from a bare bark, to a tiny bump, to a bud in a relatively short period of time! Did you follow Bill's advice and repot it in a smaller container?

It is pretty neat! I haven't done anything to it. It's still growing along in the same ol' container and seems to be happy.

Ryan
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Post  tap pi lu Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:29 pm

Ryan wrote:I haven't done anything with this guy but let it recover. It's now got a second bud down on one of the roots, interesting.
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 00315
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well, let's nurture them to grow,
later to transplant the tree to go through
when the other side lack of branches.
tap pi lu
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Post  Rui Marques Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:59 pm

Remove the bud in nebari. it will remove the of the upper ones.
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Post  Ryan Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:15 pm

Rui Marques wrote:Remove the bud in nebari. it will remove the of the upper ones.

So, I should remove the buds that sprout on the nebari, got it, thanks!

Here are some new shots of the tree, I haven't removed the buds mentioned yet:
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 00116
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 00217

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Post  Rui Marques Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:42 pm

Please, show us all the buds.

In my opinion you should remove the 2 lower buds, so that the energy directs to the upper ones.
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Post  tap pi lu Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:21 pm

I think this:
[img]When to chop Maple? - Page 3 Mapp10[/img]
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Post  Ryan Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:04 pm

tap pi lu wrote:I think this:
[img]When to chop Maple? - Page 3 Mapp10[/img]

Interesting idea, thanks!

Here is another shot showing all of the buds circled in green:
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 Vv10

And here is the back of the tree, there are a few buds back there too:
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 00714

Ryan
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Post  Ryan Wed May 09, 2012 4:32 pm

Today:
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 00119
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 00220
When to chop Maple? - Page 3 00317

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Post  lordy Wed May 09, 2012 5:02 pm

Bustin' out all over. Looking good. That dog wants it. See that look in his eyes? That's trouble I tell ya.
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