Elm leaf gall help needed

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Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  lordy on Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:44 pm

I have several Chinese elms that have twisted and contorted leaves. I showed a friend who said he thought it might be a viral problem, but didnt think it was seriously harmful to the tree, just ugly. I pulled off a few leaves and looked at it with a 10X loupe and couldnt see anything obvious. Then I cut one of the bulbs on top of the leaf open with an Xacto knife, and lo and behold, there were several small insects in there. I Googled Elm leaf gall and it showed the gall possibly caused by the Eriophyid Mite. Evidently they should be controlled at bud break with horticultural oil. I spray mine in the winter before they are stored away outdoors for winter using a diluted solution of oil and lime sulphur. I didnt realize I should also spray in spring. Also, from what I could find online, any systemic chemical might do more harm than good since the insect evidently does no serious harm.
The small pinkish spheres is where the little buggers are living.






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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Poink88 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:56 pm

From what I've read, by the time you see the galls, the insects causing it have moved on. Nothing you can do to help those leaves now so just let them be. The insects may come back though and do the same on new growth again.

I have similar on my cedar elms and used to remove them but it didn't help. Now I just leave them alone and que sera sera if the shoot's tip die. It will always bud back elsewhere anyway.

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  lordy on Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:40 pm

No, the insects are IN the little pink bulbs. I cut one open under magnification and saw about 3 or 4 inside. Apparently a type of aphid. My new spring regimen will include Neem oil and lime sulphur spray to smother the little ba$tards.

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Poink88 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:45 pm

If they are inside then you cannot (or very hard to) kill them with neem oil. Are you doing it as preventive for future attack or as they emerge?

Come to think of it, my elm leaf damage are mostly contorted curls and not sac like yours. Probably caused by different insects.

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  lordy on Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:06 pm

the Neem would be used prior to buds pushing out. Neem is used to smother pests if nothing else. AFAIK it is used in the fall primarily to rid the tree of any bug that had designs on living in the tree for the winter. Cracks and crevices abound on many elm's bark. Not sure if the insect can infest the tree after it begins to leaf out, or if it needs to be there at bud break.
Certainly I get it that an insecticide applied topically would not have much effect on insects inside the bulbs. Systemically might be a different story.

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Elm Leaf Gall

Post  bonsaisr on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:38 pm

The elm leaf gall is caused by a mite, not an insect. When I had a large Seiju elm, I sprayed with Orthonex systemic, acephate, a few times a season & had no problems. I have not had the galls on my present elms yet. Do not try Bayer Tree & Shrub, Imidacloprid, as that will not work on mites.
Iris

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  lordy on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:59 pm

bonsaisr wrote:The elm leaf gall is caused by a mite, not an insect. When I had a large Seiju elm, I sprayed with Orthonex systemic, acephate, a few times a season & had no problems. I have not had the galls on my present elms yet. Do not try Bayer Tree & Shrub, Imidacloprid, as that will not work on mites.
Iris
Thanks Iris. The image online that I found for mites was very different from what I saw in the gall, however. I am no entomologist, but these little round black bugs had at least 6 legs. I dont know what that makes him, but not at all like the white cylindrical creature with few legs in front that was shown at the Mite site.
http://bugguide.net/node/view/223267 shows the gall my elms have, as well as the closest thing I've seen online to what I think the insect was inside the galls.

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Sakaki on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:43 pm

Dear lordy,

May I suggest an interesting way?
Put a pinch of cinnamon in water and boil it in a pot, then let it cool down.
Once it is cool enough, spray it to infected leaves.
Repeat it 3-4 times with 5-6 days intervals. And let us know if it works?
I defeated similar mites several times with this method.

Taner

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  lordy on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:53 pm

Sakaki wrote:Dear lordy,

May I suggest an interesting way?
Put a pinch of cinnamon in water and boil it in a pot, then let it cool down.
Once it is cool enough, spray it to infected leaves.
Repeat it 3-4 times with 5-6 days intervals. And let us know if it works?
I defeated similar mites several times with this method.

Taner
I suppose it might be worth knowing if it works or not. A bit more online research shows that the pest is an aphid of sorts, so again, not a mite. But who knows? Aphids might not like cinnamon, and then I would simply have a discolored tree, not a disfigured one! I'm trying to figure out if the aphids are a threat to other trees nearby, such as hornbeams, maples, junipers, etc. Turns out there are just a few bazillion types of aphids in our big green world.

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Sakaki on Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:10 pm

Lordy,

Mites or insects etc... does not make any sense much in this method!
Most of insects, mites, bugs... do not like cinnamon's odour and taste.
Whenever I had no result from chemicals I tried this method and it helped me in a way more than chemicals.
I did learn this method from my grandmother. Sometimes ancient methods work better Smile
But if you have doubts, try it on a few branches or leaves first.
If you lose your tree, I send you a replacement Smile (just kidding... Very Happy )

PS: I spray it to all my trees in low concentration at the end of winter/before the spring comes in order keep the enemies away Smile And I never had a problem regarding use of it.

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  lordy on Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:36 pm

Sakaki wrote:Dear lordy,

May I suggest an interesting way?
Put a pinch of cinnamon in water and boil it in a pot, then let it cool down.
Once it is cool enough, spray it to infected leaves.
Repeat it 3-4 times with 5-6 days intervals. And let us know if it works?
I defeated similar mites several times with this method.

Taner
As per the above suggestion, I boiled water with a bit of cinnamon and let cool. I put it into an atomization handheld spray bottle and it just about clogged it up. I was barely able to pull the pump trigger without opening fully the adjustable nozzle to full bore, which with just water is similar to a squirt gun. I sprayed the several elms as well as one rose bush I have and will keep an eye on them. I dont think I will repeat every 5-6 days as it will probably ruin the sprayer. No

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Sakaki on Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:39 pm

Hi lordy

If you filtrate it first using a piece of cloth before pouring into sprayer, I dont think that you encounter same problem again.

Taner

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Poink88 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:43 pm

Sakaki wrote:Hi lordy

If you filtrate it first using a piece of cloth before pouring into sprayer, I dont think that you encounter same problem again.

Taner
Yep. Try coffee filter or just a paper towel. Should work very well.

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Poink88 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:46 pm

Sakaki wrote:Put a pinch of cinnamon in water and boil it in a pot, then let it cool down.
Once it is cool enough, spray it to infected leaves.
Repeat it 3-4 times with 5-6 days intervals. And let us know if it works?
Taner,
I will try this and combine with my other method (milk mixed with water 1:1) which takes care of aphids and other insects. I will replace the plain water with your Cinnamon "brew". Wink Thanks!

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Sakaki on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:18 pm

Poink88 wrote:
Sakaki wrote:Put a pinch of cinnamon in water and boil it in a pot, then let it cool down.
Once it is cool enough, spray it to infected leaves.
Repeat it 3-4 times with 5-6 days intervals. And let us know if it works?
Taner,
I will try this and combine with my other method (milk mixed with water 1:1) which takes care of aphids and other insects. I will replace the plain water with your Cinnamon "brew". Wink Thanks!

Hahaha Smile
I will not be surprised if someone now wants to add another thing to this mixture to make it more special and more toxic, for example Scotch Visky Laughing
BTW, I never heard about use of milk for such purpose although I dedicated myself to learn about alternate medicine in horticulture Shocked
Does it really works?

Taner

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  lordy on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:42 pm

Hahaha Smile
I will not be surprised if someone now wants to add another thing to this mixture to make it more special and more toxic, for example Scotch Visky Laughing
BTW, I never heard about use of milk for such purpose although I dedicated myself to learn about alternate medicine in horticulture Shocked
Does it really works?

Taner


I wouldnt waste good scotch on the trees, and the cheap stuff could kill a buffalo.

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Sakaki on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:48 pm

lodry

I am sure you spend much more money for your trees than what you spend for some bottles of Visky Smile
However, let the Dario think about it Smile

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Poink88 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:50 pm

Sakaki wrote:
Hahaha Smile
I will not be surprised if someone now wants to add another thing to this mixture to make it more special and more toxic, for example Scotch Visky Laughing
BTW, I never heard about use of milk for such purpose although I dedicated myself to learn about alternate medicine in horticulture Shocked
Does it really works?
Taner,
So far it looks it does. I've only done it twice and I know it reduced the aphids considerably. I made the mistake of skipping treatment though so the young ones (then) probably laid eggs already No From what I was told, the lactic acid eats through their exoskeleton that leads to their death.

I forgot to mention that I also add dishwashing liquid on mine. Really nice smelling spray too.

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Sakaki on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:07 pm

Dario,

So I am now immediately adding this method to my "to try list" Smile

Thanks
Taner


Last edited by Sakaki on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Poink88 on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:10 pm

Sorry guys, not a Visky drinker Very Happy.

I mostly drink red wine, beer, or margarita (and that is maybe 5 times a year total). We still have wine from our wedding and that was 10 years ago! Embarassed

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  lordy on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:19 pm

Sakaki wrote:lodry

I am sure you spend much more money for your trees than what you spend for some bottles of Visky Smile
However, let the Dario think about it Smile
you've never seen my trees, and most certainly have not seen me drink scotch... drunken

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Re: Elm leaf gall help needed

Post  Sakaki on Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:32 pm

lordy,

It is certain that I dont know Smile
May be you did not spend much so far, however you will probably spend, as all other bonsai growers do Smile

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