Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

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Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  Bonsai Kas on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:14 pm

Hello Growers.

I would like to know your experience with wound sealant/cut paste;
-Which brand do you use?
-Do you have a homemade recipe from grandma that works miracles?
-Does the brand make any difference and which brands should I avoid at all cost?
-Are there any species that react very strongly on certain kinds, or do some species do better without?
-Are the imported Japanese brands that much better as the average garden centre type?
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated Smile

I never used to make big cuts since most of my trees are seedlings from the garden and forests around which were formed from very young age. The last year I started buying older nursery stock and digging up (with permission) so the occasional big cut was neseccairy. The kind I started using is Bayer Natria Magnicur, it claims to use only natural resins. The reason I ask is because I feel it might not be too good. It stays quite moist and sticky for a long time, a week at least. Sometimes it seems to bulge up with moisture underneath and cuts from last spring or autumn are still not flaking off. It also has the habit of almost glueing the wire to the tree when it accidentally touches it.

A pic for reference.

I searched the forum but found no topics about it, please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Bonsai Kas
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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  stavros on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:40 pm

after reading this 3 years ago http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2009/01/about-sealing-wounds-on-trees.html , i hardly use any.....

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another question

Post  Bonsai Kas on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:49 pm

Thanks for the interesting read!
You can hardly argue with Walter's knowledge. So I suppose this brings me to a question I forgot;

-How do you take it off, if you decide to go without?

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  Poink88 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:04 pm

When I collect new plants, I seal the major cuts. Collected trees loose a lot of roots and I try to maintain as much moisture in the plant as much as possible. I never treated any of my boxwood but my crab apple was basically oozing water through a branch chop/cut for days (probably a week) so I sealed it.

Mine is home made (1 part beeswax, 3 parts honey, and 3 parts canola oil mix - if you try this, make sure to continue mixing it as it cools, otherwise the honey will separate). This works great for me but another member here recommended Tite Bond (wood glue) and swear by it. I haven't tried this yet though.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  marcus watts on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:26 pm

Hi,

i seal mosts - it looks neater, they certainly heal underneath the sealant and it has been working perfectly for decades so I see no need to change anything. The pots of cut paste are not any good imo - but the Kiyonal that comes in a tube like toothpaste is perfect for all my needs - and I'm on my second tube in about 12 years of using this type so it doesnt break the bank!
Darios recipe sounds tasty Very Happy, but as a single tube lasts a normal mortal so long it isnt too big an issue in the scheme of things

cheers Marcus

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  Poink88 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:32 pm

marcus watts wrote:...I'm on my second tube in about 12 years of using this type so it doesnt break the bank!
Darios recipe sounds tasty Very Happy, but as a single tube lasts a normal mortal so long it isnt too big an issue in the scheme of things
Marcus,
I am sure it tastes good but I never tried it. It smells good for sure and any excess is spread rubbed on my hands like a lotion LOL (no joke). I agree that the "savings" is not worth the effort but I tend to complicate things sometimes...these things makes the hobby fun. Wink

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:39 pm

I have used the kind in a tube, and the kind in a small round container. Both worked, some recommend Elmer's Carpenter's Glue, but I never tried it.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  marcus watts on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:44 pm

Poink88 wrote:
marcus watts wrote:...I'm on my second tube in about 12 years of using this type so it doesnt break the bank!
Darios recipe sounds tasty Very Happy, but as a single tube lasts a normal mortal so long it isnt too big an issue in the scheme of things
Marcus,
I am sure it tastes good but I never tried it. It smells good for sure and any excess is spread rubbed on my hands like a lotion LOL (no joke). I agree that the "savings" is not worth the effort but I tend to complicate things sometimes...these things makes the hobby fun. Wink

haha, yes, I've spent ages making stuff sometimes, its fun

i could see your recipe potentially attracting wasps though ?

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  Poink88 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:52 pm

marcus watts wrote:i could see your recipe potentially attracting wasps though ?
Don't know. I've never seen any but that doesn't tell me anything. I know before I treated the crab apple, (house) flies are all over the flowing sap. It was crazy!

Billy, I've read about Elmer's wood glue as well but like you, never tried it. I should since we have a lot at home.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  drgonzo on Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:34 pm

I use Tightbond III.

Walter references the work of Dr Shigo and relates this to the use of wound sealant as a rot preventer, as rot in trees what Dr Shigo studied. However to state that wound sealant may be superfluous in preventing rot in trees, then go on to conclude that wound sealant is unnecessary in general would be a compositional fallacy. An argument expressed in this way is invalid.

Its important to remember that wound sealants can work in other ways, as Walter also mentions. One important function is to help reduce sap loss and die back. Both of which can happen with trees that are prone to Bleed when cut. Maples in early spring as well as Birch or deciduous Azalea are immediate examples that spring to mind.

Or after drastic trunk reductions as Bill V. recommends here.
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t9471p45-when-to-chop-maple

-Jay

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  bonsainotwar on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:10 pm

I don't use any.I just cut as close to the trunk as possible,otherwise I jin it.Yes,even on deciduous or non-conifer trees.When I was still a noob,I bought some of that fancy Japanese wound sealant,but I found after a while,it peeled or fell off like an old scab.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  Bonsai Kas on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:05 pm

bonsainotwar wrote:When I was still a noob,I bought some of that fancy Japanese wound sealant,but I found after a while,it peeled or fell off like an old scab.
Isn't it supposed to do that?
My problem is more that it doesn't, so far.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  Walter Pall on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:22 am

Read "The myth of wound dressing" and also the comment:

http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.de/2012/04/myth-of-wound-dressing.html

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  0soyoung on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:30 am

I don't use the stuff because my experience agrees with the credible, reported scientific evidence, such as this layman-level publication.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  lordy on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:10 pm

0soyoung wrote:I don't use the stuff because my experience agrees with the credible, reported scientific evidence, such as this layman-level publication.
I dont intend to get into a technical discussion about a topic that I am not expert in, but the article referenced above (which is the same as mentioned by Mr. Pall) cites no real scientific evidence at all. It is statements by someone with an advanced degree. Anyone with NO credentials could make the same statements. If you read the bottom of the same "article" in Mr. Pall's blog, someone named Ryan (draw your own conclusions) mentions these very shortcomings of the article. It is simply a poorly constructed argument supported with litte fact, and is based on emotion and relies on the reader's conclusions. This is my opinion only.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  drgonzo on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:17 pm

Compositional fallacy once again, arguing from one part then asserting it holds for the whole.

'wound sealants don't prevent fungal or insect attack,
Therefore; the necessity of wound sealants is a myth.'

In one instance she uses a simile to human healing to argue against using a petroleum based sealant on trees and in another paragraph negates her previous argument by using that same simile to argue that trees don't heal the way humans do.

It doesn't matter whether the argument is backed by facts or not, the structure of the argument itself is invalid.
You would figure someone with a PhD. would have had to take a logic course or at least get proofread by someone who did.

My old Logic Prof. used to give us articles like this one as examples of poor argumentation and have us write term papers on them.

-Jay



Last edited by drgonzo on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  Poink88 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:22 pm

Lordy,

I also want to point out that even "scientific studies" can easily be manipulated to attain the "desired" results so either way I always take things with a grain of salt.

This saying is so true too "People only see what they want to see." Sadly, I am not immune to it either but try to check once in a while.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  lordy on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:39 pm

An excerpt from that "article" made me laugh-- sounds like this writer should be a politician.

Wound dressings do:
• seal in moisture and decay
• sometimes serve as a food source for pathogens
• prevent wound wood from forming
• inhibit compartmentalization
• eventually crack, exposing the tree to pathogens

So, if used, the sealer will crack, exposing the tree to pathogens? Does that mean that if not used, there would be NO pathogens entering an unprotected wound? Of course not. This is utter doublespeak.
I have used sealer and cut paste for years. This year, as it happens, I did not when cutting some trees in the ground that I later put into nursery pots. Where I cut, the bark has pulled away and the wood is drying out and splitting. Definitely looking at some dieback there.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  JimLewis on Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:55 pm

Well, Lordy . . . it wasn't a "scientific paper" she was writing. However, I have read several papers by Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D., Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor, Puyallup Research and Extension Center, Washington State University, and she knows whereof she speaks. Also, one doesn't reach that kind of a position without some expertise.

She also likes to pop horticultural balloons and myths. Her paper on the Myth of vitamin supplements (like B-12 {and stupidthrive}) is quite well known.

And I will point out yet again that just because something is mentioned by a well-known Japanese bonsaiest or two doesn't make it right or scientific.

I worked extensively with extension agents back in Florida. Few if any of them used wound sealers (or vitamins).

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  lordy on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:09 pm

JimLewis wrote:Well, Lordy . . . it wasn't a "scientific paper" she was writing. However, I have read several papers by Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D., Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor, Puyallup Research and Extension Center, Washington State University, and she knows whereof she speaks. Also, one doesn't reach that kind of a position without some expertise.

She also likes to pop horticultural balloons and myths. Her paper on the Myth of vitamin supplements (like B-12 {and stupidthrive}) is quite well known.

And I will point out yet again that just because something is mentioned by a well-known Japanese bonsaiest or two doesn't make it right or scientific.

I worked extensively with extension agents back in Florida. Few if any of them used wound sealers (or vitamins).
Actually, it was not me that cited the article as scientific at all. Quite the contrary. I am not disputing the relative benefits of sealer here, either, Jim. And I accept your word that Ms. Chalker-Scott knows her stuff. I agree completely that just because a popular "master" says to jump off a building that people should do it. That is pretty much why I made the comment about the lack of scientific foundation that the aforementioned article had. I feel like you and I are saying pretty much the same thing. Perhaps my use of cut paste and sealer makes me a lemming, but I dont wish to invest years in learning about the benefits of cut paste personally. So in this case, I choose to accept as fact that wound sealers do something beneficial to my trees. Similarly, I have not seen proof that they do harm, and their use seems logical to me.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  JimLewis on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:13 pm

Her web page is full of interesting -- and often useful -- information: http://www.theinformedgardener.com.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  lordy on Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:16 pm

thank you for the link, Jim. I have bookmarked it and will definitely read with interest when time permits.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  Bonsai Kas on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:39 pm

Hello guys, and girls.

I find it very hard to disagree with someone like Walter Pall or many others here and I definately won't. Maybe in fourty years when I have grown trees that come marginally near the trees I see here daily I might try, with reluctance and respect. What I asked for was experiences and apparently some agree with the given text and we should value them, however that doesn't mean we should accept them without doubt.

The given article however is more of a periodical written by a known horitcultural expert than an article. If only on the simple basis of scientific practice and research of which it states nothing other than conclusions without provided proof. I am a researcher myself and my boss or my former educators would give a "paper" like that back without a single word because it states no proof, no experimental outlines or any raw data that might bring the reader to the same conclusion, a good (or any) scientific article should do exactly that.
Right or wrong aside, we have to believe her on her word if we would have only this article. At worse it's contradictory and unfounded, at best it's current scientific consensus from one of the better knows experts in the field. Thank god we don't only have this article as a source and that's why I'm glad we can bring together the bigger minds of Bonsai outside Japan and have this discussion.

However...
The merit of this discussion aside, I hope this topic won't turn into a right/wrong game and that we could discuss our own experience with the subject how this topic was intended and leave the quarreling to the scientists. Trust me they will always, on any topic Wink

To practice what I preach:
Two experiences I had is that both the tree doctors we ever had into our garden used some form of sealant on the cuts they made. One on a prune that was sick and kept oozing fluids, he cut away the bad parts and covered them with a sealant (years ago in my pre-bonsai and pro-beer and hussy days so don't ask me the name). The other one cut back a big willow we had that started to literally split in the middle because it had two giant branches which were tearing the tree trough the middle. Due to the typical Dutch wetness he also used a sealant. Again, this was years ago so I can't be specific. I do remeber it fondly because anytime someone entered our garden with a chainsaw I, as a little boy, would folow his every move in awe and amazement.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  0soyoung on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:46 pm

Groucho Marks: "Say the magic word and win a prize - who do you trust?"
[the magic word in this episode is 'CODIT']

A list of some articles related this matter, in varying degrees of difficulty/complexity/formality. Of course, there are many more that are openly available on the web.

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/misc/treedecay/pg12-19.htm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_of_decay_in_trees
http://www.slideshare.net/sherylwil/4a-basic-pruning-cuts-codit http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/mitgc/article/1986127.pdf
http://www.uri.edu/ce/factsheets/sheets/treeinjury.html
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/misc/treedecay/cover.htm
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman/shigo/NTB.html
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-602.html
http://www.texasoakwilt.org/Documents/Stewardship/Pruning_Article.pdf
http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=1923&Type=2
http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=2733&Type=2
http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=61&Type=2
http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=2844&Type=2
http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=209&Type=2

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

Post  Poink88 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:09 pm

As with most thing, we shouldn't generalize. Cut sealant can have different functions and it may not be practical for some but needed on another. Sometimes it also just boils down to your intent or preference.

I observe my trees and some will continue to "bleed" months after it is cut. Will this particular tree benefit having a sealant? I believe so. Some have sap that attracts bad bugs...those I know benefit from sealants.

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Re: Wound sealant, cut paste etc. Experiences, advice and what (not) to do?

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