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5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

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evanB
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Brett Summers
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Norma
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Post  bonsaisr Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:04 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Would you think it is safe to call the tree a " Ulmus sp." When I take the tree to an exhibition?.
No, label them Chinese elm, Ulmus parvifolia.
Iris
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Post  Norma Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:52 am

Hi Yvonne,

You should be very proud of your wonderful shohin. My little elm was given the common name "cork bark" with the botanical name: Ulmus parvifolia "suberosa". The bark is naturally rough which seems similar to your tree's bark. I've had the tree for about 10 years and could not find a recent photo but here is the way it looked in 2006.

Kind regards,
Norma



ulmus nire - 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason - Page 2 Corkba10
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Post  bonsaisr Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:46 am

Norma wrote:My little elm was given the common name "cork bark" with the botanical name: Ulmus parvifolia "suberosa".
As explained above, the name of the cultivar is 'Cork Bark.' Suberosa is an invalid synonym. Cultivar names are capitalized & written in single quotes.
Iris
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Post  Guest Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:03 am

bonsaisr wrote:
Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Would you think it is safe to call the tree a " Ulmus sp." When I take the tree to an exhibition?.
No, label them Chinese elm, Ulmus parvifolia.
Iris

Thanks Iris

I will do so....and now I saw Normas pretty little tree, will I maybe much later add corkbark. I will have to follow the trees first a coupple of years. Let them become older.
The young brances of your tree Norma, does not exacly look like my trees branches, there is a little diffrence.
So, lets see Smile.

It has been a interesting little conversation...Many thanks to all.

Kind regards Yvonne


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Post  darky Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:27 am


Ulmus davidiana (Japanese cork bark elm). Could be what this is, but here is something of interest I am sure.

Nire Keyaki/Geyaki is referred to as a type of Japanese elm in Classic Bonsai of Japan.

Plate number 162.

In the notes to the plates it is as follows ( Quote Nire- geyaki ( a type of Japanese elm ) Ulmus parvifolia.

This species is suited to the miniature bonsai; small leaves are a natural advantage, and dwarf varieties are often used. When cut back, the nire-geyaki often puts out shoots on the trunk, and it is easy to make a dense growth of small branches. The surface,too, easily acquires an old roughened look. Replanting in a smaller pot would enhance this specimen's sense of scale.) End of Quote.

Very nice trees, Yvonne, what ever you want to call them Smile Darky.

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Post  Guest Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:09 am

Hi Darky

This is indeed interesting, as the tree is of old japanese type, and the growinghabits you descibe fit like a glove.

I have a large Chinese Parvifolia, and it is diffrent from my small tree, and cuttings from this larger tree have I thrown out, as they are not nice to work with, like the ones from my old tree.

You refer to plate nr. 162...I only see this,and dont understand.

Many thanks for your input...I am sure Iris find it interesting too...would the name in an exhibitionsituation be correct if the tree is labeled " Nire Geyaki "

Kind regards Yvonne


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Post  darky Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:19 am

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Darky

This is indeed interesting, as the tree is of old japanese type, and the growinghabits you descibe fit like a glove.

I have a large Chinese Parvifolia, and it is diffrent from my small tree, and cuttings from this larger tree have I thrown out, as they are not nice to work with, like the ones from my old tree.

You refer to plate nr. 162...I only see this,and dont understand.

Many thanks for your input...I am sure Iris find it interesting too...would the name in an exhibitionsituation be correct if the tree is labeled " Nire Geyaki "

Kind regards Yvonne


Yvonne, the plate number 162 is the photograph of the tree in the Book Classic Bonsai of Japan and is the way to identify the right tree with the right photograph.
This is because the book has mainly photographs of the tree's. There are limited numbers to the pages of the book. I think this would be acceptable to name it so.
Also I asked my Japanese Sensei he tells me that you can use either Keyaki or Geyaki, because in there language it sounds almost the same.

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Post  Guest Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:35 am

Hi Daky

Could you send me the photo in privacy...I really would like to see this tree.

Kind regards yvonne

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Post  Brett Summers Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:11 am

Hi Yvonne
Could you explain a little about the technique you used. It seems you may have let the wire cut in a little. Question
Thanks kindly
Brett

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Post  Guest Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:29 am

Hi Brett, I am happy you asked

I am surprised noone asked about the teknik I used on the two first untill now Very Happy... The trunk below the lowest branch is the root.

I took the cutting late winter, the cuttings with ony one root, had it vired loosely and then formed as a "cone"

Then I placed it back in the loose soil and left it to grow for two years....many times during the growingseason, did I remove the soil dawn to were I wanted the surfaceroots to begin, and removed all new sideroots, to avoid reversed taper.

The vire made the root swell, and the rough bark came fast.... I exposted the "new" trunk a litlle by little to sunlight.

After all the swelling have I removed all the small bit of vire visible, as it was ugly and of no use anymore, and later would it not strangle the tree ( I dont know if it would, I just wanted to make sure)

Kind regards Yvonne

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Post  bonsaisr Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:27 am

darky wrote:
Ulmus davidiana (Japanese cork bark elm). Could be what this is, but here is something of interest I am sure.
Ulmus davidiana is an entirely different species. It is usually called David elm or Japanese elm. It has nothing to do with cork bark elm, Ulmus parvifolia.
darky wrote:
Nire Keyaki/Geyaki is referred to as a type of Japanese elm in Classic Bonsai of Japan.
Nire Keyaki is loosely used to refer to dwarfish Chinese elms, Ulmus parvifolia, suitable for bonsai. It is not a registered cultivar, so it means nothing.
Iris
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Post  Guest Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:29 am


darky wrote:
Nire Keyaki/Geyaki is referred to as a type of Japanese elm in Classic Bonsai of Japan.
Nire Keyaki is loosely used to refer to dwarfish Chinese elms, Ulmus parvifolia, suitable for bonsai. It is not a registered cultivar, so it means nothing.
Iris[/quote]

If it is a Ulmus Parvifolia without doubt to all, could the name Nire Keyaki, or Geyaki refer to the ulmus as a dwarfish japanese form. Is this not a little more precise? ...and much more interesting for a viewer in an exhibition?, as this form is rarely seen.

Kind regards Yvonne



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Post  Brett Summers Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:28 am

Thanks Yvonne,
I do this with JBP seedlings. Some times I leave the wire on for the tree to swell over and some times I remove the wire after it has cut in some but I hadn't seen it done on elm before. It has worked well on your trees.
It is amazing how many different ways there are to create great little trees Wink
Kind regards
Brett

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Post  Guest Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:03 am

Bonsai never getts boring Smile

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Post  Rui Marques Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:21 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:
I took the cutting late winter, the cuttings with ony one root, had it vired loosely and then formed as a "cone"

Hi Yvonne,

Late winter is the best time to do elm cuttings? How about late spring when leaves are sending energy to the roots?

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Post  Guest Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:16 pm

Hi Rui

I did not try this stunt Smile If you do, please let us know if it worked.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Post  bonsaisr Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:32 pm

Please do not label your trees nire-keyake. It is an old Japanese name and is meaningless. It is just a Japanese term for dwarf elm. If you don't know the cultivar, just label them Ulmus parvifolia. If they turn out to be cork-barked, you can add the cultivar 'Cork Bark.'
Iris
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Post  Guest Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:25 am

Hi Iris

Thanks for returning....
I had planed to label the tree as "Ulmus Parvifolia Geyaki"

It was mentioned that Keyaki or Geyaki ment the tree was a dwarfform, as far as I understand...I know a little about the japanese westernwriting, and Keyaki is the western way to spel the word...Geyaki will be the japanese way to spel the exacly same word....japanese is always a little softer, wich I like wery much.

It is quit confusing...Does Ulmus Parvifolia mean dwarfform?
Nire is the same as ulmus?
Keyaki is the same as ulmus?...were does the word dwarfform come in?...I really want this dwarfform incorporated in the name, as it shows this ulmusvariation was once created to be very nice bonsaimaterial, just like satzuki was created to be nice bonsaimaterial.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Post  Rui Marques Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:11 am

A botanical would be helpful. Very Happy
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Post  Guest Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:46 am

Hi Rui

Iris know quit a lot about species...I think Iris has a botanical aducation.

Maybe Iris will let us know.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Post  bonsaisr Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:36 pm

The botanical name of all Chinese elms is Ulmus parvifolia. Nire is the Japanese word for elm, not any particular variety.
You don't have a cultivar name. Keyaki means nothing. If you are entering it in a show, you can label it Dwarf Chinese elm, Ulmus parvifolia. As I said, if it exhibits corky bark, you can add the cultivar name 'Cork Bark.'
However, I'm beginning to wonder if there may be two cork bark varieties. Evergreen Gardenworks describes it as more suitable for large bonsai because of the size of the leaves. Mine is a shohin tree barely 11 inches tall. The bark is somewhat corky, but the leaves are tiny, in perfect shohin scale. (Not as small as shohin 'Seiju' or 'Hokkaido.')
Stay tuned.
Iris
PS I have no botanical education. I took one course in Taxonomy of Flowering Plants. Other than that I am self-taught. I have a lot of botanical symptoms, and the head taxonomist at Kew calls me a botanist, but I don't know if that's enough for a conviction. lol!
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Post  Guest Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:43 pm

Hi Again Iris

Keyaki, or Geyaki is the common japanese name for Ulmus Parvifolia.

I can not say I know, if there are two kinds of corcbark...I just know my tree shoots a LOT of buds everyvere, also from the trunk, and is happy to produce scaly bark.....not at all cork. I have corkbark varietys, and they are clearly diffrent, and has the same barkhabit, both the ulmus, and the pines.

My small tree is now standing 13,5 cm tall, and will go in a exhibition in 14 days....this I look a lot forward too.
I think, I just stick to the name "Ulmus Parvifolia", and if anybody want to know more about the small leaves, am I now able to both explain and confuse Smile .

My guess is, you have read more than a few books What a Face .

Kind regards Yvonne

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Post  Hans Vleugels Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:06 pm

According to me Keyaki is Japanese elm (Zelkova), and Nire is Chinese elm (Ulmus).... scratch

BTW Yvonne: Great shohin elm on the first page!
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Post  bonsaisr Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:40 pm

I don't always believe Wikipedia, but this seems accurate.
Zelkova serrata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Zelkova serrata (Keyaki or Japanese Zelkova); Japanese: 欅 (ケヤキ) keyaki;

I must have misunderstood you somewhere along the line. scratch
I thought you said this group was beginning to show signs of corky bark. Then they are just Ulmus parvifolia, with a small p.
Iris
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Post  Guest Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:39 pm

Hi Rui

After thinking a little longer, do I think it is best to vire the roots in winter, before they becomme more stiff and fragile, because of the sapflow.

Hi Iris

I am happy you have misunderstood the corkbark thing...I was beginning to think you maybe was a bit stubborn, and that is not you at all Smile

After reading all these interresting inputs from Iris and Hans, and let us not forget Darky, who has two nice replies on page 3.....

Darky said, if I understood him right, Nire Geyaki/Keyaki was the name, of this kind of Ulmus parvifolia, this sort of specie, was created in Japan long ago, for the purpose of making nice shohinmaterial.

Hans said Keyaki is japanese elm (zelkowa), and Chinese elm is ( ulmus)

And with all the information Iris has come up with, do I think I can understand more...

A chinese elm ( Ulmus Parvifolia) refined in Japan to become shohinmaterial ...can very well have the common japanese name Nire Geyaki/ Keyaki....both nire, keyaki and geyaki is japanese words.

This will make sense in Japan, not in the western world....it is the same with satzuki, in this case we just know better now.

Am I all wrong?...please let me know

Kind regards Yvonne

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