5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Gary Swiech on Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:27 pm

It is not in Hillier's book.

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  landerloos on Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:36 pm

Yvonne,

Ulmus parvifolia corckbark hase no wings like the european corckbark.
Only very rough fisured bark.

Dont know if this helps.
Peter

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Ulmus "Nire"

Post  bonsaisr on Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:43 pm

The Arnold Arboretum of Harvard University has been, and continues to be, the recognized International Registration Authority for cultivar names in Ulmus (elm).
'Nire-Keyaki' is not a registered cultivar, so there is no telling what it is. Your rough barked specimens, if you are certain they are not a variation of 'Cork Bark,' may also be an unregiatered cultivar. Ulmus parvifolia is the botanical name for the entire species, so you can certainly call them that, if nothing else. One complication of today's horticulture is that there are many cultivars known only in Europe, only in Asia, or only in North America. And there are numerous cultivars known by one name on one continent and another name elsewhere.
'Tis a puzzlement.
Iris

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:02 pm

Hi Iris

Thanks for trying to be helpfull. Would you think it is safe to call the tree a " Ulmus sp." When I take the tree to an exhibition?.

Peter
The reason why the bark is rough on two of the trees, is because I have used a teknic.....The old tree IS old, and old trees have rough bark....I dont think it is corkbark at all...it is only old bark.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  fiona on Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:42 pm

I can't see why you shouldn't call it Ulmus parvifolia. Iris?

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Ulmus "Nire"

Post  bonsaisr on Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:04 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Would you think it is safe to call the tree a " Ulmus sp." When I take the tree to an exhibition?.
No, label them Chinese elm, Ulmus parvifolia.
Iris

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Norma on Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:52 am

Hi Yvonne,

You should be very proud of your wonderful shohin. My little elm was given the common name "cork bark" with the botanical name: Ulmus parvifolia "suberosa". The bark is naturally rough which seems similar to your tree's bark. I've had the tree for about 10 years and could not find a recent photo but here is the way it looked in 2006.

Kind regards,
Norma





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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  bonsaisr on Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:46 am

Norma wrote:My little elm was given the common name "cork bark" with the botanical name: Ulmus parvifolia "suberosa".
As explained above, the name of the cultivar is 'Cork Bark.' Suberosa is an invalid synonym. Cultivar names are capitalized & written in single quotes.
Iris

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Guest on Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:03 am

bonsaisr wrote:
Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Would you think it is safe to call the tree a " Ulmus sp." When I take the tree to an exhibition?.
No, label them Chinese elm, Ulmus parvifolia.
Iris

Thanks Iris

I will do so....and now I saw Normas pretty little tree, will I maybe much later add corkbark. I will have to follow the trees first a coupple of years. Let them become older.
The young brances of your tree Norma, does not exacly look like my trees branches, there is a little diffrence.
So, lets see Smile.

It has been a interesting little conversation...Many thanks to all.

Kind regards Yvonne


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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  darky on Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:27 am


Ulmus davidiana (Japanese cork bark elm). Could be what this is, but here is something of interest I am sure.

Nire Keyaki/Geyaki is referred to as a type of Japanese elm in Classic Bonsai of Japan.

Plate number 162.

In the notes to the plates it is as follows ( Quote Nire- geyaki ( a type of Japanese elm ) Ulmus parvifolia.

This species is suited to the miniature bonsai; small leaves are a natural advantage, and dwarf varieties are often used. When cut back, the nire-geyaki often puts out shoots on the trunk, and it is easy to make a dense growth of small branches. The surface,too, easily acquires an old roughened look. Replanting in a smaller pot would enhance this specimen's sense of scale.) End of Quote.

Very nice trees, Yvonne, what ever you want to call them Smile Darky.

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Guest on Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:09 am

Hi Darky

This is indeed interesting, as the tree is of old japanese type, and the growinghabits you descibe fit like a glove.

I have a large Chinese Parvifolia, and it is diffrent from my small tree, and cuttings from this larger tree have I thrown out, as they are not nice to work with, like the ones from my old tree.

You refer to plate nr. 162...I only see this,and dont understand.

Many thanks for your input...I am sure Iris find it interesting too...would the name in an exhibitionsituation be correct if the tree is labeled " Nire Geyaki "

Kind regards Yvonne


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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  darky on Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:19 am

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:Hi Darky

This is indeed interesting, as the tree is of old japanese type, and the growinghabits you descibe fit like a glove.

I have a large Chinese Parvifolia, and it is diffrent from my small tree, and cuttings from this larger tree have I thrown out, as they are not nice to work with, like the ones from my old tree.

You refer to plate nr. 162...I only see this,and dont understand.

Many thanks for your input...I am sure Iris find it interesting too...would the name in an exhibitionsituation be correct if the tree is labeled " Nire Geyaki "

Kind regards Yvonne


Yvonne, the plate number 162 is the photograph of the tree in the Book Classic Bonsai of Japan and is the way to identify the right tree with the right photograph.
This is because the book has mainly photographs of the tree's. There are limited numbers to the pages of the book. I think this would be acceptable to name it so.
Also I asked my Japanese Sensei he tells me that you can use either Keyaki or Geyaki, because in there language it sounds almost the same.

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Guest on Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:35 am

Hi Daky

Could you send me the photo in privacy...I really would like to see this tree.

Kind regards yvonne

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Brett Summers on Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:11 am

Hi Yvonne
Could you explain a little about the technique you used. It seems you may have let the wire cut in a little. Question
Thanks kindly
Brett

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Guest on Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:29 am

Hi Brett, I am happy you asked

I am surprised noone asked about the teknik I used on the two first untill now Very Happy... The trunk below the lowest branch is the root.

I took the cutting late winter, the cuttings with ony one root, had it vired loosely and then formed as a "cone"

Then I placed it back in the loose soil and left it to grow for two years....many times during the growingseason, did I remove the soil dawn to were I wanted the surfaceroots to begin, and removed all new sideroots, to avoid reversed taper.

The vire made the root swell, and the rough bark came fast.... I exposted the "new" trunk a litlle by little to sunlight.

After all the swelling have I removed all the small bit of vire visible, as it was ugly and of no use anymore, and later would it not strangle the tree ( I dont know if it would, I just wanted to make sure)

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:27 am

darky wrote:
Ulmus davidiana (Japanese cork bark elm). Could be what this is, but here is something of interest I am sure.
Ulmus davidiana is an entirely different species. It is usually called David elm or Japanese elm. It has nothing to do with cork bark elm, Ulmus parvifolia.
darky wrote:
Nire Keyaki/Geyaki is referred to as a type of Japanese elm in Classic Bonsai of Japan.
Nire Keyaki is loosely used to refer to dwarfish Chinese elms, Ulmus parvifolia, suitable for bonsai. It is not a registered cultivar, so it means nothing.
Iris

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Guest on Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:29 am


darky wrote:
Nire Keyaki/Geyaki is referred to as a type of Japanese elm in Classic Bonsai of Japan.
Nire Keyaki is loosely used to refer to dwarfish Chinese elms, Ulmus parvifolia, suitable for bonsai. It is not a registered cultivar, so it means nothing.
Iris[/quote]

If it is a Ulmus Parvifolia without doubt to all, could the name Nire Keyaki, or Geyaki refer to the ulmus as a dwarfish japanese form. Is this not a little more precise? ...and much more interesting for a viewer in an exhibition?, as this form is rarely seen.

Kind regards Yvonne



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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Brett Summers on Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:28 am

Thanks Yvonne,
I do this with JBP seedlings. Some times I leave the wire on for the tree to swell over and some times I remove the wire after it has cut in some but I hadn't seen it done on elm before. It has worked well on your trees.
It is amazing how many different ways there are to create great little trees Wink
Kind regards
Brett

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Guest on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:03 am

Bonsai never getts boring Smile

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Rui Marques on Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:21 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote:
I took the cutting late winter, the cuttings with ony one root, had it vired loosely and then formed as a "cone"

Hi Yvonne,

Late winter is the best time to do elm cuttings? How about late spring when leaves are sending energy to the roots?


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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Guest on Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:16 pm

Hi Rui

I did not try this stunt Smile If you do, please let us know if it worked.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Ulmus "Nire"

Post  bonsaisr on Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:32 pm

Please do not label your trees nire-keyake. It is an old Japanese name and is meaningless. It is just a Japanese term for dwarf elm. If you don't know the cultivar, just label them Ulmus parvifolia. If they turn out to be cork-barked, you can add the cultivar 'Cork Bark.'
Iris

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:25 am

Hi Iris

Thanks for returning....
I had planed to label the tree as "Ulmus Parvifolia Geyaki"

It was mentioned that Keyaki or Geyaki ment the tree was a dwarfform, as far as I understand...I know a little about the japanese westernwriting, and Keyaki is the western way to spel the word...Geyaki will be the japanese way to spel the exacly same word....japanese is always a little softer, wich I like wery much.

It is quit confusing...Does Ulmus Parvifolia mean dwarfform?
Nire is the same as ulmus?
Keyaki is the same as ulmus?...were does the word dwarfform come in?...I really want this dwarfform incorporated in the name, as it shows this ulmusvariation was once created to be very nice bonsaimaterial, just like satzuki was created to be nice bonsaimaterial.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Rui Marques on Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:11 am

A botanical would be helpful. Very Happy

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:46 am

Hi Rui

Iris know quit a lot about species...I think Iris has a botanical aducation.

Maybe Iris will let us know.

Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: 5 Ulmus Nire cuttings facing 5th. growingseason

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