Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Nice tree Max.

If some of you might take notice what is said at minutes 07:34 thru 08:17. By no means do I think this or he is the gospel in Bonsai.. but what he says does make sense to me. IMHO posts of trees might be better viewed more for what they are or the artist has done. Not what we might do or think what should be done. Unless otherwise critique is asked for. And also we all just develope thicker skin and know when you post something you might be opening up yourself for comments and critiques.

Happy Bonsai, BrianG

It's a very valid point, Brian. Very often we do exactly what Ryan is saying and start by looking at the (real or perceived) bad points of a tree. When I am giving feedback to my students in college I always start with the things they have done well. . The difference between that scenario and bonsai of course is that it is my job as lecturer then to go and give constructive criticism of the things they have done less well. But that is because in that context I am the expert. I'm always wary of giving critiques of people's trees because I am not a bonsai expert. If asked for my opinion I'll give it, but otherwise not.

Some wise words from Ryan there.

I like the tree - it is a little different and has a more elegant feel compared to the posted virtuals. Maybe unfinished in the sense that the ramification could be further developed. The virtuals, of course, are also valid options but to me they have more of a "mass produced" look, i.e. you can see trees trained like that in every show. And this tree can always be taken in that direction, but it would be difficult to get back to something like the present structure.

As for critiques...tough issue. I've mentioned before that I was a member of an art forum where people became so defensive that you were not allowed to criticize or offer suggestions unless the poster specifically requested it (the default was "no critique"). Of course, people would forget to request comments and then they'd get pissed off when there weren't any. Eventually all you ever saw was "beautiful painting", "wonderful", etc, and what had once been a useful place to learn became a love-fest where everything was great.

I don't know what the best solution is...but I still like this tree

BrianG wrote:https://youtu.be/PAp6gHVE9D4?t=7m34s

Thanks for sharing.

fiona wrote:Some wise words from Ryan there.

I agree.

The things I liked the most...
1. Why following design guideline (not rule) is recommended.
2. Viewing the positive things about the bonsai first before what can be improved.
3. Show a tree when it is ready.

Here is a small update about how the tree looked a few months ago...
Hope you enjoy it!

Best wishes
Max

Hi Max
Healthy looking foliage. Foliage pads more pronounced now. Keep up the good work.

Cosmos

This tree is looking great, Max. I am pleased that you weren't swayed by others to remove the "Hurst Shifter" branch (as it was referred to previously). The proposed virtuals were very nice and if you'd decided to go that route you still would have obtained a nice tree. However, IMO that style is WWWAAAAAAYYYYYYY over done. Of course this gets into the argument of Japanese vs. naturalistic style, somewhat, but ultimately the virtuals suggested are more of the traditional Japanese style. I don't think the world really needs another bonsai that has the 6:1 base to height ratio with a green helmet.

Granted, I live in California and although we do have some quite old olives here, they are probably nothing like those found in their native Mediterranean habitat. Perhaps your tree doesn't mimic a classic aged olive, but it is a hell of a lot more interesting than the suggestions you were given. Nice work.

I think it now simply needs time to develop and ramify. Keep us posted of the development.

Hi John,

I'm sorry I cannot agree with not receiving critiques. If you post a tree on a forum, whether unsolicited, you have to expect people to naturally give an opinion.

The critiques and comments were fair and helpful and members even took the time and trouble to do virtuals!

I am not going to go into the merits or not of the tree, but this tree was NOT ready for showing as it lacked foliage and there was no coherence between the foliage pads.

That part of this thread is now an old debate. Mambo, I notice your joining date post-dates the original post; just for your information this thread was one of several catalysts that brought about a major change in the forum set-up. Please accept that it's because of that that it's pretty much a closed subject now and not in any way because of your own comment.

Fiona
Moderator

Thank you, Fiona.

But I think its only fair to let Mambo point out why he thinks this tree isn't worth it any look.
To me this is absolutely fine. I don't like trees that have nothing emotive.
(And I never said I don't want a critique. I just didn't support the made suggestions.)

Best wishes
ME

Max,
Thanks for posting an updated pic, I missed this thread last year & the 'debacle'. I am glad you stuck to your vision, the added growth over the last year is really starting to fill it out nicely, another few years of growing & refining the branching will make this one the most distinctive & unique olives I have seen. Keep up the good work, I look forward to seeing it again next year

Matt

PS: I see nothing constructive in someone telling another they should cut half of the design off to suit their own tastes, it's not a critique its a redesign.

fiona wrote:That part of this thread is now an old debate. Mambo, I notice your joining date post-dates the original post; just for your information this thread was one of several catalysts that brought about a major change in the forum set-up. Please accept that it's because of that that it's pretty much a closed subject now and not in any way because of your own comment.

Fiona
Moderator

Hi Fiona,

My response was to a thread, which despite the date it may have been started, was once again current. Obviously the debate was not heated enough for the thread to be closed so I saw no harm in stating my own opinion. I did not critique the tree but only made the comment that I am certain many would agree with, that in my opinion the tree was not ready to show. I saw no harm in giving my opinion.
Are there any changes that I should be aware of regarding the forum set up? If so where can I read about them and how they came about?

Thanks

Raymon

PS: I have retrievers too.