Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

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Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Max on Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:48 pm

olive (Olea europaea)
styled since 2006
pot: Peter Krebs
Yamadori from Sicily

height with pot 62 cm, 70 cm wide

Greets
ME


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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Tona on Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:42 pm

Great tree Max!!

Tona

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  cosmos on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:38 pm



Hi Max
Nice Sicilian yamadori. But I see it more compacted (like in my crude virtual) and surely any Sicilian will agree for its compaction. They go through long debates about their styling olives and olivasters and they 'dislike' styling trees in th 'juniper way'. This does not mean that the path that you have chosen for your olive is not good. I am just pointing another option.

Thanks for sharing.

Cosmos


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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Poink88 on Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:17 pm

Nice tree Max.

The last 3rd of the right branch looks too heavy (it didn't taper). Have you considered shortening it and replacing with smaller branch later? Actually you already have some you can use now.

Your apex (or the tree foliage as a whole) gives an imbalance feel right now. You might consider working on it also.

*** My comments/critique are geared to help based on my personal taste.

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Rob Kempinski on Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:38 pm

Max, good luck with the show.
And congratulations on keeping the tree alive in your climate.

I am noticing olives are tricky, the new growth need to be extensively wired to keep it in shape otherwise it looks a bit untidy.

Have you thought about significantly shortening the tree perhaps by layering off the straight branch? You could make a cascade of the long branch and a nice impressive chunky tree of the base.


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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Rob Kempinski on Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:42 pm

cosmos wrote:
Hi Max
Nice Sicilian yamadori. But I see it more compacted (like in my crude virtual) and surely any Sicilian will agree for its compaction. They go through long debates about their styling olives and olivasters and they 'dislike' styling trees in th 'juniper way'. This does not mean that the path that you have chosen for your olive is not good. I am just pointing another option.

Thanks for sharing.

Cosmos


Hey Cosmos I see we are on the same wavelength here. Very Happy You posted while I was making the virt!


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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Mike Jones on Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:58 pm

Hello Max

Firstly well done indeed this far. Cosmos and Rob seem to have hit the right button but it is your tree and if the current shape is what you prefer then that is the way it will be.

Funny old hobby really this Bonsai malarkey; personally I know diddly-squat about an Olive other than the club trees we have. I can however appreciate a cracking trunk and associated foliage. So then you get a great possible virtual, and the pot seems wrong; which I guess is what makes the sport / passion / hobby so diverse and generally entertaining.

What do you have in mind for the future with this one Max?

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Max on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:23 am

Sorry guys but I will not castrate this tree to make it look like any other olive. This simply is not doing Bonsai also not in Italy. By the way its impossible to cut the tree as some want to cause its a double trunk.

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  stavros on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:40 am

Max Engels wrote:Sorry guys but I will not castrate this tree to make it look like any other olive. This simply is not doing Bonsai also not in Italy. By the way its impossible to cut the tree as some want to cause its a double trunk.

The proposed solution is NOT castration. You can put it simply by saying that you do not like it.
I also think that generalising what all (most) italian bonsai practitioners would do is also incorrect.
If you do not like what is been proposed as a possible solution, then it's another story.
It goes without saying that we respect what you like or not in terms of styling, but the whole point of showing trees is to get some opinions, critique and discussion around it.

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Max on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:51 am

stavros wrote:
Max Engels wrote:Sorry guys but I will not castrate this tree to make it look like any other olive. This simply is not doing Bonsai also not in Italy. By the way its impossible to cut the tree as some want to cause its a double trunk.

The proposed solution is NOT castration. You can put it simply by saying that you do not like it.
I also think that generalising what all (most) italian bonsai practitioners would do is also incorrect.
If you do not like what is been proposed as a possible solution, then it's another story.
It goes without saying that we respect what you like or not in terms of styling, but the whole point of showing trees is to get some opinions, critique and discussion around it.

Stavros,
To me it definitely is castration to make a tree look like hundreds of others do.
That's it.




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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Max on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:56 am

stavros wrote:I also think that generalising what all (most) italian bonsai practitioners would do is also incorrect.
You didn't understand this one. Cosmos pointed out what the Sicilian Bonsai artists do with their olives.
To me this doesn't matter.

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  landerloos on Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:14 am

Max my friend,
if you like it, then the tree is as it should be.
I agree if you cut back it will look like many other olives.
The tree needs time to fill out some more thats all, am I right Max?

Peter

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:24 am

Max Engels wrote:
To me it definitely is castration to make a tree look like hundreds of others do.
That's it.

I agree. Keep this tree unike, Max!

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  marcus watts on Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:15 am

hi,
Every tree that every person puts up on the board can be improved in some way, that is why we put them up so other people see our work with a different eye and can see the problem bits easily. Some take critique well, others get a little defensive, (I eventually learnt to take a step back, read each comment while looking at the picture and see the tree as others do). If individuals just put a picture up hoping to be told how great it is, and how gifted an artist they are they often don't take suggestion or critism well..........and they also are missing out to dismiss all comments quickly

If you are entering a tree into a show it is other people who see it for the first time - judges, general public, other artists - and they will see the tree the same as the members here. I see the tree's ramification as knowhere near mature enough to enter a national show regardless of the branch design.

The trees plus points are the bark and trunk base - mature and pleasing.
The neither right or wrong parts are the overall branches and their size - this is just the owner, Max, showing what he was able to do with the material.
The let down is the ramification and fine twigs - there is only a year or two of rather untidy straight and upright growth making up the foliage groups - this does not match a mature bark and trunk and for me just shows a little impatience to be in a show.

But then it may be the best olive in Germany for all I know!.........so really it is only Max who knows deep down if he feels the tree is the absolute best he can achieve, and he must feel that as its entered into the show, so well done - nice pot too Very Happy

cheers Marcus

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  jgeanangel on Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:41 am

I know this conversation has been had before but....

This is yet another perfect example...if you look at Max's original post he did not ask for comments or a critique. He was simply sharing... He specifically said it is ready for a show...he is proud of this tree. That certainly doesn't mean it can't get better but perhaps now is not the time to suggest it....not one person asked if he wanted a critique of his tree.

Who cares if all he wants are nice tree comments????

Then to continue the critiques after he has plainly taken offense to the suggestions is just poor etiquette and rude.

Marcus, you asked why folks leave the forum...here is yet another example of why... unsolicited criticism and rude behavior! There is certain curator of a nearby collection that quit posting here for exactly this reason...yet another big loss!! He wasn't looking for nice tree comments but just wanted to teach and share his knowledge....he also was offended by unsolicited critiques.

It is beyond me why folks think they have to add their personal critiques of a tree when a poster has not SPECIFICALLY asked for it.

And please don't give me the this is a public forum excuse...just because it is a public board doesn't mean that we throw decorum and common decency out the window....I don't personally think that IBC should be or is a Rousseauian world. There are tons of threads out there begging for virtuals why waste time creating them for threads that didn't ask???

Just because you feel you can offer someone advice on how to improve their tree doesn't mean they are ready or want to take it...

Sorry Max...rant over...I hope you have a great time at your show and learn lots!!

John

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  stavros on Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:39 pm

Hi Max, i respect what you are saying. This is the way you like your tree, and this way it should be. No argument there my friend.
@John
Please take no offence. I am just being devils advocate here....
A person posts a tree that goes for an exhibition.....What is going to happen at the exhibition???No critique? No opinions?? No ideas?? If that person is ready to expose his tree/art to the public, judges, other exhibitors, other fellow enthusiasts, then he/she should be ready for comments/critique/ideas. Unless he/she things that he/she was God's gift to the world of bonsai, and no person should have another opinion. We all have the opportunity to learn throughout our bonsai career, regardless of how advanced we are (or we think we are). So constructive critique/ ideas/ suggestion should always be welcome. Going defensive after constructive critique can possibly retard our evolution.

Max, sorry for ruining the post Smile
I wish u all the best with your olive !!


Last edited by stavros on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Rob Kempinski on Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:51 pm

jgeanangel wrote:I know this conversation has been had before but....

This is yet another perfect example...if you look at Max's original post he did not ask for comments or a critique. He was simply sharing... He specifically said it is ready for a show...he is proud of this tree. That certainly doesn't mean it can't get better but perhaps now is not the time to suggest it....not one person asked if he wanted a critique of his tree.
snip....
John
John,
you are missing the most valuable part of this forum. It can serve as a global study group.
Suggestions made in the spirit of helping are just that. To merely post photos severely limits the utility of such a valuable resource such as this global forum.
As long as the comments are not a personal attack any tree critique should be viewed as fair game and a major purpose of the forum. No need to get defensive.




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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Poink88 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:59 pm

I agree with Marcus, stavros, and Rob 100%.

If we are just here to show off and looking for/accepting "great job" comments, then the forum is not the place for it.

Forum is defined as "A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged."

Merriam-Webster defines it as "a public meeting place for open discussion."

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Rob Kempinski on Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:04 pm

Hi Max, Enjoy the show. Be curious to hear what people say about the tree when they view it in person.

I wasn't suggesting you castrate the tree, that would entail a lower cut; decapitation would be a better word. Very Happy
Decapitating the top straight branch wouldn't make it look like all the other olives, in fact Google "Bonsai Olive images" and you'll see there are all kinds of olive configurations. What it would do is give you an older more ancient looking tree - the long straight branch is really discordant and immature looking compared to the rest. But if you like that, keep it, it makes its own style. I have an unofficial word for that type of style - I call in all good humor "the Hurst Shifter style." I had a few trees like this until I decided to use the guillotine. affraid


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://image.popularhotrodding.com/f/12566867/0708phr_03_z%2B1968_chevrolet_chevelle%2Bhurst_shifter.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0708phr_1968_chevrolet_chevelle/photo_02.html&usg=__x8tA85hV9UWt4Rtjzc1C7-CyleI=&h=480&w=640&sz=43&hl=en&start=7&zoom=1&tbnid=gINiQSs6rwNn-M:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&ei=SzqAT928Mujm2gWQ49yMBw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhurst%2Bshifter%2Bimage%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Den%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1

And as Marcus pointed out the foliage could use more work but there is time for that. Have fun and don't take offense at suggestions to improve trees. They are merely suggestions for your consideration.

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Poink88 on Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:07 pm

jgeanangel wrote:
Marcus, you asked why folks leave the forum...here is yet another example of why... unsolicited criticism and rude behavior! There is certain curator of a nearby collection that quit posting here for exactly this reason...yet another big loss!! He wasn't looking for nice tree comments but just wanted to teach and share his knowledge....he also was offended by unsolicited critiques.
Have you considered that what you are doing is possibly another reason why others leave? It is good sometimes to "look at the mirror" and reflect.

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  JMcCoy on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:00 pm

The virtuals made were terrific examples of a "natural" olive shape as you may find ancient ones growing, and the image of the branches matches with the incredible base on this tree. BUT - if it were my tree, I don't think I would restyle it in that image. When I first saw Max's Bonsai, I thought it was beautiful! He really has a unique shape with this tree and a dynamic, almost semi-cascade movement. It presents a lot more activity than the virtuals show. Not to open a can of worms here, but there is something to be said for not creating the standard squat rounded shape that most Bonsai tend toward. If there is a defining characteristic that draws us to a piece of material, the Bonsai should be created around that. In this case, it is the sweeping, jagged trunk with an interesting shari.

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  JimLewis on Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:19 pm

I've always been of the school that if you post a picture of your creation on a public forum there is an implicit recognition that you accept (if not welcome) comments.

However, there are comments and there are comments. In this case it seems those comments were a tad abrupt, and on the demanding side. No one seemed to care to find out what Max might have been thinking about. They just knew their ideas were better.

Perhaps, if someone doesn't want suggestions for "improvement," to his or her tree that should be clearly stated (although there are some here would will contribute their thoughts, anyway).

_________________
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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  jgeanangel on Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:07 pm

Rob Kempinski wrote:
jgeanangel wrote:I know this conversation has been had before but....

This is yet another perfect example...if you look at Max's original post he did not ask for comments or a critique. He was simply sharing... He specifically said it is ready for a show...he is proud of this tree. That certainly doesn't mean it can't get better but perhaps now is not the time to suggest it....not one person asked if he wanted a critique of his tree.
snip....
John
John,
you are missing the most valuable part of this forum. It can serve as a global study group.
Suggestions made in the spirit of helping are just that. To merely post photos severely limits the utility of such a valuable resource such as this global forum.
As long as the comments are not a personal attack any tree critique should be viewed as fair game and a major purpose of the forum. No need to get defensive.

I am not Rob...I have always explicitly asked for comments and thoughts about my posts...but I also respect the feelings of someone that just wants to share and see a need for this level of participation. Shouldn't the poster be the one that gets to decide just how much "valuable resource" they would like to partake in??

You all miss my point...I am not saying critique is bad in any way, shape, or form...quite the opposite. I see the poster's, the person that has provided the contents, wishes as more important the hordes...obviously that is not the case with most of you.

signing off:)

John

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  fiona on Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:51 pm

It's an issue that we will consider in any new system as I think there are fair points on both sides of the arguments. For my own part if posting pics of my trees, I usually ask for comments/suggestions if I want them. Some have been very worthwhile, some less so, and some have been downright laughable. Maybe we should be suggesting that posters tell us straight up if they do or do not want comments. If I'd been reading this sooner, I'd probably have erred on the side of caution and assumed Max didn't or asked him if he'd mind some suggestions and awaited his response. Hindsight, of course, is a wonderful thing. Perhaps we could use the proposed new Gallery function for those who wish to post pics without viewer comments. I'll have a think about that.

In the meantime - Max, best of luck with your tree at the show. Please let us know how you get on.

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

Post  Hans van Meer. on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:19 pm

Cheers and happy days to one and all!
Hans vn Meer.

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Re: Ready for Orscholz - german federal exhibition

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