Posting & Membership

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  marcus watts on Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:14 pm

tony wrote:Wow this post could get really HOT Evil or Very Mad so lets keep it civil.

The best advice I can give is... look at the trees of the folk who are offering help... are they healthy? Then trust their horticultural advice, are they styled well, trust their skill as an artist... both, then wash their pots at their feet and listen.

exaclty, well put....now then, I should book a flight to Jakarta to wash a few huge forest planting pots..........

As Billy said everyone, even the owner of one single small elm, could contribute to a relevant post, in the same way a research chemist could share technical advice in their specialist field even if they have never wired or repotted a tree....its about being a good listener (reader) when its your time to learn, and being a good writer when the subject matter is something you have experience of.

Marcus

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  jgeanangel on Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:58 pm

Poink88 wrote:
jgeanangel wrote:
But...I will pose this question...when do you want a newbie answering questions about your trees?
As I told you in a PM. I don't care who answers. I choose what/whose advise I will follow.

Right or wrong, I want everyone to have a voice and if they are mistaken, hopefully someone (like you) would set them right.

First...if you are truly new to the hobby how do you know whose advice to follow and whose to ignore???? Did you happen to see the post Ryan made about trunk chopping(excuse me Bill:))drastically reducing a trident maple...maybe 5 or 6 pages of advice most from those with little or no experience??? Whose advice to you choose?

Second, in spite of my earlier joke about muzzling(in bad taste I am sure), I am not interested in denying anyone's voice...and that is sooo not my point. But, as Marcus mentioned, I just wish the people with no experience, other than what they have read some place, watched in a demo, or had a conversation about, would choose to keep their opinions to themselves or at least qualify their responses.

I spent a couple days last week watching Kathy Shaner do grafts...several different kinds...but I only watched, no hands on...Now, I can describe in detail the process, and I feel ready to try it myself, but I have zero practical experience... If someone posted a question about grafting I would never answer it simply because I lack the practical, hands-on, and successful experience to make my advice valuable. In the future, after I have successfully grafted a few things, I might consider answering a question about grafting...but never until I have some practical experience. From my perspective, to do otherwise is waste of everyone's time!

John

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Poink88 on Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:06 pm

John,

It is your style and personality. I won't try to change it...likewise, I hope you can respect that others operate differently from you.

I analyze things and sound off...that is partly how I learn. I do qualify my response most of the time. I was called an idiot on a PM today. I may as well be since I am stubborn this way.

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  drgonzo on Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:58 pm

After 900 some odd posts I find more and more of my forum communications with regards to both questions asked and advice given are taking place over PM. I feel less and less like educating or sharing what I have found to be successful on the open forum. The members who know me know why that is. The fact that there are so many registered members who do not post on the open forum is not surprising to me at all.
-Jay

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:06 pm

I don't post much. I've come here since 2006 to read and learn but it took several years before I even registered because I finally felt I had something to post. 6 years into bonsai and I still don't feel I'm ready to give advise on much more than creating ramification on ficus benjamina or a long list of things you shouldn't do. I've got a bonsai blog non the less. I think that's the problem here, on a forum, you start a new topic eiter for asking a question or to show something you have done. Lots of the "masters" are moving over to posting on their blogs. Walter Pall dissapeared from the forums when he started his. Anyone seen Tickle or Baddeley much here lately?
If the pros and semipros are leaving to publish themselves on their blogs, all that is left are beginner level bonsai and questions. Have you noticed how Sebastian Sandev, Harry Harrington, Pavel and several other of the expert posters here always ends with a teaser and a link to their blogs/sites? They are posting here as a way to pull traffic. I'm not complaining, but that's the way I see it. The time for top level discussion on the forums are over.

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Poink88 on Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:24 pm

Ingvar,

Interesting observation and I believe you are into something.

I just pray you are mistaken about high level discussions being over in forums. That would be sad. Crying or Very sad

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  JimLewis on Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:24 pm

If the pros and semipros are leaving to publish themselves on their blogs, all that is left are beginner level bonsai and questions. Have you noticed how Sebastian Sandev, Harry Harrington, Pavel and several other of the expert posters here always ends with a teaser and a link to their blogs/sites? They are posting here as a way to pull traffic. I'm not complaining, but that's the way I see it. The time for top level discussion on the forums are over.

If that's true, it's a sad day. Blogs are a damned poor (and very awkward) way to learn bonsai. Of course if all you want to do is look at pretty pictures and "listen" to pontification . . . . .

And WHO has the time to find and read all those blogs (gawdawful word!)? I'm retired, and I don't.

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Orion on Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:14 pm

JimLewis wrote:
If the pros and semipros are leaving to publish themselves on their blogs, all that is left are beginner level bonsai and questions. Have you noticed how Sebastian Sandev, Harry Harrington, Pavel and several other of the expert posters here always ends with a teaser and a link to their blogs/sites? They are posting here as a way to pull traffic. I'm not complaining, but that's the way I see it. The time for top level discussion on the forums are over.

If that's true, it's a sad day. Blogs are a damned poor (and very awkward) way to learn bonsai. Of course if all you want to do is look at pretty pictures and "listen" to pontification . . . . .

And WHO has the time to find and read all those blogs (gawdawful word!)? I'm retired, and I don't.

Jim, I think it's more of a double-edge blade. I keep a favorites list of blog sites simply because it's just another avenue for information. Granted, some blogs are a waste and yet some others provide incredibly interesting and helpful stories and progressions, you just have to sift through and pick. And yeah, it can be a ton of reading and translating; it's just what we're faced with as far as information goes.

As far as expert posters? Even with the ones who may have left, this is still an excellent forum with more than enough expertise to satisfy most questions, concerns and critiques. In short, you can generally get a sound answer to most any query.

John

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Mike Jones on Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:16 pm

What the heck has 'retired' got to do with the price of fish-n-chips on a rainy evening in Margate???

Methinks; that is me myself personally; think that thee 'Bonsai-ists,' take theeself far too seriously and forget to enjoy what you / thee/ they do Smile

I apologise for spelling mistakes, incorrect puntureation, rong gammer, use of sense of humour; noun imperfection, and so on.

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Poink88 on Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:20 pm

I also frequent a few blogs and agree that it is another learning venue. It is not for everyone but I learn faster with (before and after) progressive pics. I normally don't read too long posts either.

My favorites are;
SandevBonsai
Walter Pall Bonsai Adventures
Animabonsai
Kaisenbonsai

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  MrFancyPlants on Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:31 pm

I lurk most of the time, but I certainly try to jump in if I think I have some valuable info to contribute, but most of the time I just don't have anything to contribute. I believe Bonsai as a hobby generally tends to appeal to introverted (and interesting) personality types. And, I am sure I am not alone in considering myself fiercely independent as well as non-conformist. This can lend itself to some friction in social situations as well as during the exchange of ideas an knowledge(like on this forum). We should all keep this in mind and just try not take anything personal. Some Bonsai people are just a bit weird, but that is part of the fun.

I often find myself in an odd spot as an intermediate to beginner skill level. No-one seems particularly drawn to the material that I post, so it hard to get questions answered or styling suggestions. As my horticultural skills improve I hope that my material will also improve, so maybe this will resolve itself soon. In the meantime I am happy to mostly lurk and assimilate knowledge even if I sometimes have to answer my own questions through trial and error.

I would however vote for shaking up topic categories a little. I am just brain storming here, but I think it would be interesting to separate posts that had no initial image associated with them. This would group a lot of the most beginner questions. "Bonsai" or "Questions" as topic categories are too general to me. I think that these could be broken up into

Identification
Virtuals and Styling Q&A
Progressions


Just my humble opinions,
David



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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  JimLewis on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:27 pm

What the heck has 'retired' got to do with the price of fish-n-chips on a rainy evening in Margate???

Ask me again when you are retired.

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Mike Jones on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:32 pm

JimLewis wrote:
What the heck has 'retired' got to do with the price of fish-n-chips on a rainy evening in Margate???

Ask me again when you are retired.

Sleep Third year into retirement … NEXT?

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:41 pm

I say bull and if it is what the forum stands for, I guess I (and all newbies) should shut up contrary to what this thread was trying to promote.

When I started this I wasn't trying to promote anything. I am a retired historian and tend to observe and comment on things that seem interesting.

As to who should post, I am a firm believer that we learn more from mistakes that we do successes. Even misinformation on the forum, if corrected, is a learning experience for everyone.

I also think that one of marks of a learned person is the ability to evaluate information.

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Poink88 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:04 pm

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:I say bull and if it is what the forum stands for, I guess I (and all newbies) should shut up contrary to what this thread was trying to promote.

When I started this I wasn't trying to promote anything. I am a retired historian and tend to observe and comment on things that seem interesting.

As to who should post, I am a firm believer that we learn more from mistakes that we do successes. Even misinformation on the forum, if corrected, is a learning experience for everyone.

I also think that one of marks of a learned person is the ability to evaluate information.
I thought the thread is about encouraging others to post thus my post. If I am mistaken then sorry.

I agree with what you said 100%. thumbs up

What was that saying again "Give a hungry person fish and he will eat once...teach him how to fish and he will eat forever."?

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  JimLewis on Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:43 pm

Mike Jones wrote:
JimLewis wrote:
What the heck has 'retired' got to do with the price of fish-n-chips on a rainy evening in Margate???

Ask me again when you are retired.

:sleep: Third year into retirement … NEXT?

And you have spare time????????????? Please tell me how you DO it. I've been retired for 10 years now and get busier every year.

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Tony on Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:50 pm

Ingvar Nilsson wrote: Anyone seen Tickle or Baddeley much here lately?

strange quote? I post almost daily on this forum?

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‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  will baddeley on Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:37 am

Ingvar Nilsson wrote:I don't post much. I've come here since 2006 to read and learn but it took several years before I even registered because I finally felt I had something to post. 6 years into bonsai and I still don't feel I'm ready to give advise on much more than creating ramification on ficus benjamina or a long list of things you shouldn't do. I've got a bonsai blog non the less. I think that's the problem here, on a forum, you start a new topic eiter for asking a question or to show something you have done. Lots of the "masters" are moving over to posting on their blogs. Walter Pall dissapeared from the forums when he started his. Anyone seen Tickle or Baddeley much here lately?
If the pros and semipros are leaving to publish themselves on their blogs, all that is left are beginner level bonsai and questions. Have you noticed how Sebastian Sandev, Harry Harrington, Pavel and several other of the expert posters here always ends with a teaser and a link to their blogs/sites? They are posting here as a way to pull traffic. I'm not complaining, but that's the way I see it. The time for top level discussion on the forums are over.

Hello....Still here. Very Happy I think Ingvar is bang on the money with this one. Blogs have become more prevalent on the forums of late. I don't have a problem with them as I have one myself but to post one picture and link it to your own blog is not just lazy, it also lacks flow. Pavel, Sebastian,Harry and Tony are all guilty of this. I also have noticed over the years that the top names only reply to posts they have a vested interest in. Walter on Croatian and Eastern European posts and Tony on Pavels, Burrs or British yamadori, to name just a couple.
I typed names not to be vindictive but to encourage those mentioned to broadcast their knowledge a little further a field?
Having first become involved with the IBC back in 2001 and getting my fingers burned with my very first post, it wasn't until 2009 that I rejoined the forum. Up until recently I used to give a lot of advice but increasingly found myself answering the same questions again and again. There were a couple of other issues and I left the forum briefly, not realising that this would lose me all my threads and posts as well. I see the same old faces and people like Marcus making the effort to answer questions on a regular basis which is encouraging but more of the experienced membership needs to get involved at all levels.
Forums are always mostly about new members as they are by far the majority in bonsai. Separating them off from more experienced members is elitist and they will gain very little in my opinion. As for lurkers.... We have all been lurkers

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Poink88 on Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:58 am

Will. Great post. thumbs up

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  Tony on Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:46 am

On the money Will.

Before 'newbies' post they should check that the question has not been asked before "is bonsai art" is a classic that comes up every 12 months.

I will never respond to "please can you give me a 'virtual' for my tree" (the photo supplied a 6" seedling in a 5 litre pot") Cool

What has REAL VALUE on this forum is horticultural advice, Bugs etc. Pot choice, case studies and progress photos.




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‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  landerloos on Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:20 am

OOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhh I never been a lurker Wink

You know, I sometimes get tiered of all the answering and nearly never getting anything back, thats why I am so inactive the last couple of months.
My opinion is, if you want help, you have too help others too, never mind newbie or not, everybody hase some ideas one could use.

Peter

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  my nellie on Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:42 pm

JimLewis wrote:... ... but on the other hand, we have many too few people who seem willing to answer the questions of those who are new to bonsai and know it. We also have a large number of people who seem only to want to show their fine works. I enjoy looking at these, too, but I do wish more of them folks would hold out a helping hand occasionally… …
I do wish the same and every beginner, too I am sure.

tony wrote:… …The best advice I can give is... look at the trees of the folk who are offering help... are they healthy? Then trust their horticultural advice, are they styled well, trust their skill as an artist... both, then wash their pots at their feet and listen.
Provided that there are those folks offering help… I would have no diffidence to wash silently their pots sitting at their feet just listening. But beyond this everyone (even beginners) has the basic ability to sift the offerings. Or they do not?

will baddeley wrote: ... ...I also have noticed over the years that the top names only reply to posts they have a vested interest in. Walter on Croatian and Eastern European posts and Tony on Pavels, Burrs or British yamadori, to name just a couple... ... Forums are always mostly about new members as they are by far the majority in bonsai. Separating them off from more experienced members is elitist and they will gain very little in my opinion… …
Maybe these top names are not among the folks that Tony describes above but there are just as well some other names who may not be considered “top” but are top in kind offering. And this makes the difference.

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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  stavros on Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:09 pm

It is true that all newbies do not get the attention from the experienced members and this is only natural since questions are repeated over and again. This could be partly sorted by preparing some basic articles that answer the most commonly asked questions and refer newbies to them.

The other point that Will and others made is the fact that some members only comment/reply on posts by specific members/groups of people. It is always fruitful to see comments from highly experienced people regardless to whom they are directed to, but it would be much nicer to see them become involved in other posts too.


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Re: Posting & Membership

Post  fiona on Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:20 pm

I think it would be better if we stopped using this thread now as a lot of what is being said is already answered on the Beginners' Board thread HERE. Can we concentrate our responses there please so I can come up with an official proposal soon.


btw I have taken the good points from on here into account in what I am saying over there.



Please note the consultation has now entered its second (and final) phase and can be found HERE
Please disregard the previous link in this post.

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