bald cypress question

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Mitch Thomas on Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:40 pm

Frank
When you do the heavy carving the upward growth pushes upward smoothing out the base bulge. Also the callous begins to taper attbe base of the new leader.

Mitch

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  klusters on Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:13 pm

Thanks Mitch,

I recently purchased a cypress with a leader that has been growing for 10 years , I guess do to a lack of carving around the slanted trunk chop it was never able to assimilate into the main trunk line. The photo is a bit fuzzy



best

Frank

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Mitch Thomas on Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:30 pm

Frank
Yes I can see that the technique was used on your tree. I think the carving may have preformed a tade to late. It looks like you need to do a couple of things. In order to heal the initial chop the leading edge of the callous must be aggravated. The callous also needs to have cut paste on the newly agrivated callous. Also has the initial chop been sealed? If not it needs to be. If not the callous will stop advancing. Next I think you need to chop the new leader again. Where? You have to look at it carefully and find a spot where you have a good bud or sprout and the taper is not comprimised, in the front, and repeat the whole process higher up. The trick is not letting the leader to get to thick.

Mitch

After looking closer you need to terminate the large branch at the bottom of the initial chop it's getting to thick and robbing energy that is need at the new apex. I would then re carve the pear shape past where the branch was removed this will improve the taper and get rid of the inverse taper being created there.


Last edited by Mitch Thomas on Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:41 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Added to post)

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  bucknbonsai on Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:34 pm

mitch, thank you so much for going through the trouble of posting those pictures. Im so horrible with computers that it would have taken me about 2 hours to do that. I hate to ask you even a couple more questions. On the picture you drew of the back, at the back edge of the cut it is just round, not pointed. I have heard people say that in general if both ends of the cut are pointed that the sap flow will be faster and cover over the wound quicker, do you agree? Also, from what I can tell your cut forms a convex dome of wood that goes strait back towards the back, would there be any reason to make the dome twist around the tree toward either side, or just have it go strait back? Also, on the dome of wood that you carved, will it look more realistic to have it drawn out longer down the back of the trunk (to possibly help the sap flow and possibly make it look like an old lightening strike)? I dont want to sound like im questioning any of your drawings but I never get to see many of these big cypress much less big yamadori (most of my club is into shohin much less bald cypress), so I havent got to see a lot of these trees in different stages to learn there callousing behaviors, and im just assuming they callous like a trident or other fast growing tree would. When you alter the edge of the callous to have it grow more, are you just scraping to expose green or are you actually taking a knife and removing a measurable amount of tissue (like a millimeter?) When letting the big trunk chop scar heal over do you tend to let it heal over just using the strength of the new leader and not let any other buds grow all around the wound. Ive heard people say extra buds may make it heal fast but to me it seems even if it does do it faster, it may do it uglier with the risk of inverse taper as well as robbing your leader of some energy which you are wanting to fatten up. Lastly (for now) on these big bald cypress yamadori yall have down there, do the wounds ever heal over all the way? Is that something I should be expecting to happen? Im 30 years old now and as mentioned earlier plan on having some 5" diameter wounds, and am just wondering if im looking at a 10 year process or a 50 year process? and i dont mind keeping them in the field if thats what it takes.
thanks again,
alex

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  klusters on Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:04 pm

Thanks Mitch!

I scored the edges of the callous and sealed the whole thing soon after i took that photo to promote growth of the callous. The deadwood on the chop seems to show some rot (picture attached). If i carve the rot out, then the callous would not be able to grow over that hole. If I do not carve away the rot I worry that if there is a bacterial and/or fungal infestation, it would continue to eat away at the tree. Perhaps its best to carve it, remove that thick branch at the bottom of the chop (great suggestion, thank you), and then see where things stand. I thought to cut down the leader after the leaves harden off, but I would still be left with that bottom section of the leader that bows out at the base...

Speaking of callous formation, I've seen some interesting studies that looked at callous growth in the presence of antibiotics and fungicides, vs untreated controls. The treatment group outperformed the controls to such a degree, that it seems as if the major impediment to callous formation is infection.




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Re: bald cypress question

Post  bucknbonsai on Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:15 pm

frank,
i thinks some people carve it out then fill with auto putty or even concrete

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Mitch Thomas on Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:22 am

Hey Buck
I am not that techie but my apple computer deffinately makes it easier. I will try to answer your questions one by one.
On the picture you drew of the back, at the back edge of the cut it is just round, not pointed. I have heard people say that in general if both ends of the cut are pointed that the sap flow will be faster and cover over the wound quicker, do you agree?

I have seen it done both ways. This is how Guy does it and he has done thousands of them with the results to verify, so that's good enough for me.

Also, from what I can tell your cut forms a convex dome of wood that goes strait back towards the back, would there be any reason to make the dome twist around the tree toward either side, or just have it go strait back?

He does it like this so when it heals over the transition is seamless and taper is even and conversing.

Also, on the dome of wood that you carved, will it look more realistic to have it drawn out longer down the back of the trunk (to possibly help the sap flow and possibly make it look like an old lightening strike)?

I would have to guess. The larger the wound the longer it takes to heal.

I dont want to sound like im questioning any of your drawings but I never get to see many of these big cypress much less big yamadori (most of my club is into shohin much less bald cypress),

No problem these drawings were not to any scale, just a basic synopsis.


so I havent got to see a lot of these trees in different stages to learn there callousing behaviors, and im just assuming they callous like a trident or other fast growing tree would.

Yes I have used it on elms, tridents, Parsly hawthorns, yaupons, etc.

When you alter the edge of the callous to have it grow more, are you just scraping to expose green or are you actually taking a knife and removing a measurable amount of tissue (like a millimeter?)

Just so green shows, less than 1/16"

When letting the big trunk chop scar heal over do you tend to let it heal over just using the strength of the new leader and not let any other buds grow all around the wound.

We usually let the entire tree grow out and or start developing our branch structure at the same time. The more sap flowing the more results in healing the wound. The trick is don't let any branches get to thick or out of proportion.

Ive heard people say extra buds may make it heal fast but to me it seems even if it does do it faster, it may do it uglier with the risk of inverse taper as well as robbing your leader of some energy which you are wanting to fatten up.

Not Realy, the more growth, the more energy is stored in the tree.

Lastly (for now) on these big bald cypress yamadori yall have down there, do the wounds ever heal over all the way?

Most do heal completely. Some not fast enough so we change the design and incorporate it onto the design.

Is that something I should be expecting to happen? Im 30 years old now and as mentioned earlier plan on having some 5" diameter wounds, and am just wondering if im looking at a 10 year process or a 50 year process? and i dont mind keeping them in the field if thats what it takes.
thanks again,

Most trees make very respectful bonsai in about 5 years, but it I am anning on working on mine for as long as possible.
Here is one that Guy collected and carved at the time of the photo the tree has had about 4 yrs scence collection.

Mitch[img][/img]

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  bucknbonsai on Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:35 am

mitch thanks a lot. Im just so jealous of your tree, ridiculous. Makes me want to get rid of all my big mediocre nursery stock ones and just buy a collected one like that. Is it true bald cypress wont fuse together? I often wondered if fusion of seedlings could be used to produce a trunk or at least be used to thread graft or approach graft in new roots.

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Mitch Thomas on Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:50 am

Hey Buck
Thanks. It is one of my favorite trees. I have been needing a new pot for it. I have not tryed to fuse any so I can't say. I have tread grafted and it took tho.

Klusters
I have had this happen and I treated the rotted wood with a expoxy made to repair rotten wood and it worked great. Icannot remember what the name brand was, sorry

Mitch

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Fore on Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:37 pm

Great thread guys! And Mitch, that's a gorgeous Bald Cypress with great natural looking taper! I have one but with no flutes, 3-4 trunk that I can try this technique on. Thanks for posting the pics, it helps a lot!

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Mitch Thomas on Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:40 pm

Fore
Even if your tree doesn't have flukes it will have a nice nabari, just dig down to the first set of surface roots and make the base of your tree. I have seen many nice well developed BC with out flukes but good nabari.

Yes it will work on any size Bald Cypress or any other apcial dominate tree for that matter. I have used this technique on elms. mapels,privet,yaupon, etc...

Mitch

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Fore on Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:49 pm

Hell, I can't get it straight...sorry! But I almost lost this tree after leaving it with a friend while I found a house to buy in Chicago. Hence the dead top and a large shari that you can barely see in this pic. I tried carving a dead jin like at the top last year, but I don't like it at all. I also had to cut all the branches off because some were too thick higher up. So I'm starting from scratch again. So I'm thinking of doing a flat trunk chop now as it has tons of news buds right now. And in the fall, wire up the new leader and carve that oval shape and see how that goes. It' might not work perfectly b/c of the dead part of the trunk...but I have to try something here, it's awful right now lol

[img][/img]

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  klusters on Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:23 pm

Thanks Mitch and Buck for your suggestions, much appreciated!

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Mitch Thomas on Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:30 pm

Fore
Thanks, I love collected bald cypress just beacause you have such a great base to start with. It's ok if you don't like your design, you can strip off all the branches and start over.
When ever you have to leave say for work or travel just set your tree in a water tray or bucket and fill up with water and it will take care of its self.

As far as chopping it again, maybe you could make a dead top design flat top design.

Mitch

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Fore on Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:34 pm

I was thinking of that option too. Do you have any suggestions as to how I would proceed? Make the top jins shorter and thinner and to develop the flat top from there or something else? I need some guidance on this one, I'm just not sure where I want to take it...or what it will take to let me get it there Wink

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Mitch Thomas on Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:17 pm

Fore
Here a couple quick sketches of some designs. You tree is not very tall so o think you need to use every thing you have. So you can make a dead top in either way. First is a flat top with the dead wood piercing thru.
[img][/img]

The second is have your foliage to the side of the dead trunk
[img][/img]

These last two are inspirational images of some prodacarpus that may modified to your tree.
[img][/img]
[img][/img]

The possibilities are endless let you imagination free. It's your canvas!

Mitch

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Fore on Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:54 pm

Excellent drawings Mitch! Thank You Very Much for the inspirations! I'm not sure about pic 1. The flat top foliage and the tall jins don't feel to me to be 'a match'. Maybe it's just me. But I do like pic 2 quite a bit. This tree has gone thru hell and back and still survived. This photo really brings those qualities out nicely! I do think either way I have to do a better job carving those top jins. They are too smooth and I think too large still. I'm obviously still learning carving, and when I see some really nice carved trees posted here, I'm even more aware of how crappy I am to obtaining a natural look when it comes to carving lol

But you've given me a really nice idea that works with the trees characteristics instead of me fighting them.

Thanks again Mitch!
Chris

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  ironman on Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:39 pm

Check out the B/C pictures on the topic; 55th California Bonsai Society Convention under discussion...

Scroll down -there is a pic which will offer another solution in what Zach has offered...

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Re: bald cypress question

Post  Fore on Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:37 am

The tree with the flat apex, that was also split down the middle? I'm not so sure if so. Not natural looking to me. Perhaps I'm talking about the wrong tree? Very Happy

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Re: bald cypress question

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