Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  AJ on Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:04 pm

I find leaning trees to be of interest; for me, more so than straight trees. In bonsai, leaning trees are represented by the slanting form. The hinoki this thread is about is a slanting form bonsai. It seems that for many, it slants too much. But for me it does not. If I slanted it a little more, which would still be credible in light of the previously posted image, it would feel (as my friend Ken said the other day) "uncomfortable" to me. If it slanted less, it would be less interesting for me. That's why I've slanted it to the degree that I have.

Some of the dialogue in this thread has been about the need to adjust the branching to be in better accord with the degree of lean that the tree has. But when I look at leaning trees in nature, I find that there is no set way to correctly position branches on trees in that posture.

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

AJ
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  AJ on Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:14 pm

And finally (and this does have to be the end for me, because I can't give anymore time to this thread, however interesting it might be) here's a leaning pine that I think fits this discussion well:

[img][/img]

Whoa - look at those branches on the left side. Somebody better get on God about wiring them down.

p.s. to Alain K - Thanks for giving me something to smile about. And you're right, that does settle the matter, for me.

AJ
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  Rick Moquin on Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:07 pm

Arthur,

Like I said whatever floats your boat. If you are happy then by all means enjoy, but perhaps be more specific in your original posts in the future what is/was your intent wrt to your tree. Folks have indeed been civil and have spend a great deal of time discussing this with you. I should have remained on the sidelines, as your rendition doesn't move me. Your latest pic of the pine yes it is in nature but do you know the story, or because it is in nature it is alright to do it that way. May I suggest you give Walter a ring on his thoughts.

Rick Moquin
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  Vance Wood on Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:08 pm

I understand the thinking and reasoning behind the going natural trend in bonsai. I agree with much of the philosophy, and many of my trees are heading in this direction. I feel compelled to offer the warning from the viewpoint of one who has been around long enough to fight through the "American Bonsai" issue where many really ugly and unkempt trees were supposedly justified by the fact that the artist called them "American Bonsai". I am not saying that your tree falls into that category, not at all, but beware the tendency to avoid sound art because it may make the tree look too Japanese. In short; don't be so much an iconoclast that you forget how to be an artist. Principles like balance and perspective should not be sacrificed on the alter of new ideas unless the new ideas are, in the end, relegated to the junk pile of bonsai history.

Vance Wood
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  kenduncan on Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:44 am

Vance,
I think I know what You are trying to say, I too like a more natural look to my trees, but I think You should know that Arthur is a well trained and accomplished Artist. His drawings and paintings are very well done.
The trees at The North Carolina Arboretum are very well cared for by Arthur and some very special and talented volunteers that work there. All of the trees are done in very good taste. The trees in the collection are done in a way to reflect the beautiful natural surroundings of the Appalachian Mountains. We area Bonsai people are proud to have these assets, Arthur and the Arboretum, in our area.
Here is a poster that Arthur did for the Carolina Bonsai Expo last year.
Ken

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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  Velodog2 on Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:39 am

Cool. What a clever and nicely done poster! One more thought on the hinoki discussion tho. The trees you show in your last batches of pictures AJ are indeed natural, althought the one growing over the little house probably had 'help' from a pruning saw more than once. However I would not want to make a bonsai that looked like very many of them as they are not beautiful, to me at least. There is almost infinite variety of tree forms out there and this can be used to justify almost any bonsai design. Someplace along the line I do remember hearing that a bonsai imitates a tree in nature, only is more beautiful. 'Beauty' of course being in the eye of the beholder.

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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  Rob Kempinski on Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:49 am

Nice job with the restyle. I'm coming in a bit late in the discussion but in my view, the asymetrical sillhouette is more unique than the cone shaped triangle that it had previously. I don't see the new style as un-Japanese or even un-bonsai. It still is a tree in a pot evincing an image of a mature specimen (but not a really old one.)


AJ wrote: The degree to which all this has been thought out is reflected in the choice of container and where the tree is placed in it. The pot is deeper than what would typically be used for a tree with the trunk diameter that this hinoki has, and it's rectangular. The intention was to create a strong, stable base for the composition. The tree is potted to the extreme right side in order to balance the sharp movement of the trunk to left.

I don't like the new pot or the placement in the pot. By squeezing it in the right side it is not creating a strong stable base as you state above. There doesn't seem to be enough visual mass to the right to hold the tree in place. In addition, the pot is too Asian in design and too formal for the restyle. It would have look better with the original tree. Also it looks like a fairly low cost pot. I feel the tree needs a much more dynamic higher quality pot.


Something like this


or this







[img][/img][img][/img]

BTW Robert Steven's new book called "Mission of Transformation" covers all these topics in depth. I highly recommend it. Just because a tree is natural doesn't mean it is beautiful. But beauty doesn't always have to be the aim.

Rob Kempinski
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  Alan Walker on Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:20 am

AJ wrote:
[img][/img]

[img][/img]

If SouthPark had bonsai!!!

Alan Walker
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  jgeanangel on Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:44 pm

kenduncan wrote:Vance,
I think I know what You are trying to say, I too like a more natural look to my trees, but I think You should know that Arthur is a well trained and accomplished Artist. His drawings and paintings are very well done.
The trees at The North Carolina Arboretum are very well cared for by Arthur and some very special and talented volunteers that work there. All of the trees are done in very good taste. The trees in the collection are done in a way to reflect the beautiful natural surroundings of the Appalachian Mountains. We area Bonsai people are proud to have these assets, Arthur and the Arboretum, in our area.
Here is a poster that Arthur did for the Carolina Bonsai Expo last year.
Ken

I fully agree Ken! Anyone who knows Arthur recognizes his many talents. The bonsai world, and this forum, are lucky to have a professional such as Arthur. He balances a clear focus/purpose with an outstanding horticultural knowledge and an exquisite artistic eye. In my opinion he is certainly fast becoming one of America's top bonsai artist.

From my perspective this thread demonstrates all too well the difference between bonsai artist and bonsai hobbyists.

Respectfully,
John

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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  DaveP on Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:35 am

jgeanangel wrote:
From my perspective this thread demonstrates all too well the difference between bonsai artist and bonsai hobbyists.

Respectfully,
John

That seems a bit inflammatory in its vagueness.

Kindest~
-d

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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  Rob Kempinski on Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:43 pm

DaveP wrote:
jgeanangel wrote:
From my perspective this thread demonstrates all too well the difference between bonsai artist and bonsai hobbyists.

Respectfully,
John

That seems a bit inflammatory in its vagueness.

Kindest~
-d

Even John Naka said "Monkeys fall out of trees."

Rob Kempinski
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  Velodog2 on Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:54 pm

[quote="jgeanangel"]
kenduncan wrote:Vance,
From my perspective this thread demonstrates all too well the difference between bonsai artist and bonsai hobbyists.

Respectfully,
John

Ah, well, for the record I would never, ever consider myself to be any kind of artist (except perhaps the art of BS), any more than I would consider you to be a statesman.

Velodog2
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  AJ on Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:12 pm

First, I'd like to thank my friends John G. and Ken for their kind remarks in my behalf. I respect both of you for your ability in bonsai, and I value you as friends. At this point, as regards this thread, I would be grateful if you disengaged and paid no mind to anything being said.

People participate in these forums for different reasons. For a number of years I followed IBC and several other sites without ever posting anything. I was primarily interested in seeing other people's work. Much of what I saw was not appealing to me, but occasionally someone would post something that I thought was very good. If I liked a person's work I might be interested in reading what they had to say, on the premise that the idea behind the work might be as appealing as the posted image. If I didn't like what they were presenting, I went and looked at something else.

Eventually I decided to jump in and post images of the trees that I grow. By being a poster in this forum, I have to accept that anyone who is registered on this site can respond in any manner they choose. Some responses I see here, to my own posts and the posts of others, puzzle me. Some make me laugh and some are annoying. But this is a public forum, and free speech is never as tidy as one might hope. I accept that.

My original post at the top of this thread was about Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress, expressing my opinion that they are not as difficult to grow for bonsai as some people apparently believe. I attached a picture of a nice hinoki bonsai that I grow, so that people reading the post might have some evidence that my opinion on it had some level of credibility. The replies to my post weren't about the ease or difficulty of growing hinoki as bonsai, but about the styling of the tree in the picture I posted. Everything that has followed was off the original topic.

I take blame for this. I should not have responded to the posts that were critiquing the bonsai in the picture. If I had ignored those responses, the thread would have quickly disappeared down the list. I apologize for my mistake.

I wouldn't mind discussing my bonsai ideas here. Discussing bonsai is actually part of my job, and I do it just about every day. I want to put my pictures on display in this forum so that others can see my work, and if somebody appreciates what I post, that's great. If they have a question about something they see in the picture, and they ask, I'll be happy to respond. I'll do the same with other peoples' work.

To me, this is a respectful way to go about it. If someone asks my opinion, I'll give it. If I want someone's opinion, I'll ask it. Offering critical opinions about the work that someone else posts, unless they ask you for it, is rude. Taking the photo that someone else has posted of their work and altering it to what you think looks better and then posting that, without being asked for your idea, is rude.

Obviously, there are many people on IBC, and other such sites, who disagree. That's their right. This is a public forum, we have freedom of speech, and once a person steps out and posts something they expose themselves to all that comes with that. And as I said before, people have different reasons for participating in these forums. I just want to see what others are actually doing with bonsai (as opposed to virtually doing with bonsai), and share what I'm doing. Other people have other agendas, and that's not my concern.

So, I'll keep posting pictures. There will be people who will continue to offer me their unsolicited critiques and virtuals in response (probably more than ever, now), and I'll ignore them. It's the price to be paid for reaching out to others all over the world who enjoy the art of miniature trees.

[img][/img]

AJ
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  DaveP on Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:11 pm

I'm sorry if you perceived my actions as rude, AJ. There was certainly no intent, overtly or otherwise.

-d

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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  Rob Kempinski on Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:15 pm

AJ, think of this forum as a global study group. Critiquing trees is a good way to learn. Of course if you are going to ignore our comments maybe we should ignore yours. Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:28 pm

kenduncan wrote:Vance,
I think I know what You are trying to say, I too like a more natural look to my trees, but I think You should know that Arthur is a well trained and accomplished Artist. His drawings and paintings are very well done.
The trees at The North Carolina Arboretum are very well cared for by Arthur and some very special and talented volunteers that work there. All of the trees are done in very good taste. The trees in the collection are done in a way to reflect the beautiful natural surroundings of the Appalachian Mountains. We area Bonsai people are proud to have these assets, Arthur and the Arboretum, in our area.
Here is a poster that Arthur did for the Carolina Bonsai Expo last year.
Ken

I am not questioning Arthur's ability, experience or artistry. I simply wanted to point out the pit fall of throwing the baby out with the bath water in an effort to create something new.

Vance Wood
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  John Quinn on Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:30 pm

AJ stated "If I want someone's opinion, I'll ask it. Offering critical opinions about the work that someone else posts, unless they ask you for it, is rude. Taking the photo that someone else has posted of their work and altering it to what you think looks better and then posting that, without being asked for your idea, is rude..."

Obviously, I'd disagree, having offered, early on in the thread, comments and a virtual to illustrate. You respectfully disagreed and offered your own thoughts. However, having participated in IBC and other forums for several years, it is clear that posting trees will elicit comments and feedback, solicited or not.
Too many threads have nothing more than "nice tree" commentary.

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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  Jaco Kriek on Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:20 am

As I am fairly new to this hobby/art form (don't go on the hobby art subject again), I really enjoy the different opinions given by members, and how better can their opinions be illustrated than with a virtual. I there never see any opinions or virtuals as negative but attempt to learn something from each persons opinion, although I sometimes disagree. Please keep on posting opinions and especially virtuals.

Jaco Kriek
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  AlainK on Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:50 pm

John Quinn wrote: (...) However, having participated in IBC and other forums for several years, it is clear that posting trees will elicit comments and feedback, solicited or not.
Too many threads have nothing more than "nice tree" commentary.

Nice commentary.

Smile

AJ, if this Hinoki cypress had very little interest, the thread would have died by itself very quickly. The fact that people defend strong, and conflicting, opinions about it just shows how good the tree is: everyone would like it to be part of their collection, and of course, as many people, as many opinions about the design.

The arguments developped by both the proponents and the opponents of the "slanting design" are very useful to hobbyists like me, looking for more knowledge of what make a bonsaï a good bonsaï. It's well argumented, and one can can understand each other's point of view, that's debating, that's what a forum is for too. And what I like here is that is is always done in a very civil manner, like it should be between people sharing a common passion, even if they often have different opinions.

Sticking to your first opinion proves that you have a style of your own, a personal vision of this tree. But other visions can be welcome too.

Please AJ, keep on posting trees like this one and have no fear of a civilized debate.

Peace, love and rock'n roll flower

AlainK
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  DaveP on Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:00 pm

Alain,

Well said! .. Well said. Very Happy

Kindest~
-d

DaveP
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  John Quinn on Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:31 pm

A bit off the topic Alain, but I have been following the Tour de France through central France this week and I must say it is quite beautiful! The peloton finished in Saint-Fargeau yesterday which I believe is also not too far from Orleans. I have been only to Paris but see that I must return to see the countryside!

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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  jgeanangel on Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:15 pm


jgeanangel
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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

Post  John Quinn on Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:30 pm

Hmmm...where have I seen that tree before?? Very Happy
Click here for more info on the Carolina Bonsai Expo

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Re: Dwarf Hinoki Falsecypress

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