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When is a shohin no longer a shohin

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Billy M. Rhodes
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Rob Kempinski
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Post  Rob Kempinski Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:52 am

This Willow Leaf Fig (Ficus nerifolia) has been growing in this pot for the past 5 or 6 years. The roots are starting to conform to the pot so it's time for a big decision = put it in a larger pot and let the roots continue to expand beyond shohin size or find another suitable shohin pot and trim the roots trying to keep it a shohin.

When is a shohin no longer a shohin 1_befo10
The trunk has fattened nicely and now takes up a larger portion of the front to rear distance in the pot. (BTW I made this pot).
When is a shohin no longer a shohin 2_root10

If I place this in a larger pot then the tree will capitalize on the extra space and soon outgrow its shohin dimensions.
Roots are definitely crowded.

When is a shohin no longer a shohin 3_crow10
Out of the pot.
When is a shohin no longer a shohin 4_out_10
Close up of the roots
When is a shohin no longer a shohin 5_root10
Bottom of root pad.

When is a shohin no longer a shohin 6_bott10
First try, trying to squeeze it into a shohin silver slipper (made by John Ptt). Looks very tight.

When is a shohin no longer a shohin 7_silv10
The root pad is resting on the top edge of the back of the pot. Why do I see one of Cinderella's sisters trying to wedge a fat foot into the glass slipper? Twisted Evil
When is a shohin no longer a shohin 9_shal10

How about this blue pot by Bellota Pottery (Paul Katich) of Jacksonville. Fits no problem. The tree would like this pot and probably really grow.
When is a shohin no longer a shohin 8_blue10
Maybe this brown pot from a European potter that uses a beetle as a chop (can't recall the name of the potter)
When is a shohin no longer a shohin 10_rec10
Plenty of room in this pot for the roots to grow.
When is a shohin no longer a shohin 11_top10

How about this Chinese magma and lava rectangle pot. Similar dimensions to the brown pot.
When is a shohin no longer a shohin 12_chi10
Here's a shallow Sara Rayner, USA, square pot. Plenty of room for the root pad.
When is a shohin no longer a shohin 13_sar10
View from above the Sara Rayner pot.
When is a shohin no longer a shohin 14_top10

OK, which would you choose?????
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Post  Orion Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:00 am

I like the Katich pot, but I'm not crazy over the color.
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Post  DJSEND Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:05 am

I like the Katich pot best for fit and I do like the color as well.

Cheers,
~ Jay

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Post  Mitch Thomas Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:25 am

Rob
IMHO I prefer the Sara Raynor pot the best, with the beetle chop a very close second. Why? Hum, I guess the Paul katitch is very nice but I wish the blue was more of a pastel color. I think the blue is to over powering for this tree. The contrast between the pot and tree is to great and distracts me. Also I think it's still a little small. With the SR pot I like the negitive space between the nabari and the pot rim and also the earth tone glaze works better for me.

As far as the other question when is a shohin not a shohin? Well I guess when it's larger than the 9 to 10 suggested size. In my opinion you are coming close to sumo if it is not chopped soon or just go up to the next standard size. What would that be? Also to me shohin has a different set of standards as far as proportions and branch placement. This aspect alone may push you up to the next classification. Definitely food for tought.

Mitch

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Post  yorasta Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:17 am

the silver slipper (made by John Ptt) dis is the 1 color of the trunk matches with the pot ThumbsUp
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Post  marcus watts Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:10 am

Beetle chop european brown one for me.

I think a large percentage of shohin eventually move up in size - while you can reduce and regrow branches for many years you can't stop the trunk and nebari getting bigger and, as you show us here, eventually the lower tree is too big to make a true shohin tree. The highest quality chuhin trees I've seen are all grown up shohin ones due to the branch quality and beautiful attention to detail

Cheers Marrcus
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Post  Todd Ellis Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:06 pm

Sara Rayner is my 1st choice. The Silver Slipper and Magma/lave are a tie for me. Great choices and
lovely tree Rob!
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Post  JimLewis Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:01 pm

Of course, I'd always vote for keeping it small.
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Post  Rob Kempinski Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:12 pm

BTW, can anyone recognize this chop and distinctive pot hole? I know I should have paid more attention when I bought the pot - I think I got it at the Czech show in Prague.

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Post  Rob Kempinski Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:14 pm

This is a close up of the flower in the background - in case you were wondering. A native iris. Unfortunately the flowers only last for a day or so and then are gone.

When is a shohin no longer a shohin Img_2110
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Post  Billy M. Rhodes Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:29 pm

I prefer the Sara Rayner pot because it allows a more correct placement, slightly off center and to the rear, the others would restrict you to another dead center placement.
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Post  Glaucus Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:38 pm

Shohin is below 30cm but above 15cm. At least for azalea. Categories are very well defined.

The size of the pot is selected to match the size of the tree. It should feel balanced. If the pot is too narrow, it will give the suggestion of the tree toppling over. If it is too wide, if will give the idea of the tree being too small. Same goes for depth. Ratio of dimensions is crucial here.

I don't think a brown pot(or rather a shade too close to the colour of the bark) for a decidious tree is a good idea. When there is no green, there are no colours at all. There should be some colour contrast if it is supposed to be shown in fall.


Last edited by Glaucus on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:51 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post  Rob Kempinski Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:42 pm

Glaucus wrote:Shohin is below 30cm but above 15cm. At least for azalea. Categories are very well defined.

The size of the pot is selected to match the size of the tree. It should feel balanced. If the pot is too narrow, it will give the suggestion of the tree toppling over. If it is too wide, if will give the idea of the tree being too small. Same goes for depth. Ratio of dimensions is crucial here.
Hi Glaucus,

The quesiton was not really a matter of size but when to let a tree continue to grow to leave the shohin size category.

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Post  Rob Kempinski Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:49 pm

For this tree, I decided to try to keep the tree a shohin (at least for a few more years) and to constrain the size by trimming the roots and by using the smallest pot that still had some room for the roots to spread. In a year or two, hopefully the roots will adopt a more oval shape. Therefore, I chose the John Pitt shallow oval. Ficus nerifolia can readily handle very shallow pots, heck they could probably live without soil.

When is a shohin no longer a shohin 15_top10

When is a shohin no longer a shohin 16_tri10

Final image with soil and fertilizer
When is a shohin no longer a shohin 2012_016

Thanks for the input.
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Post  JimLewis Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:04 pm

Good decision!
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Post  marcus watts Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:53 pm

Glaucus wrote:Shohin is below 30cm but above 15cm. At least for azalea. Categories are very well defined

I see 25cm quoted a lot more for entries to shohin bonsai displays these days, (tree above soil) and talking to the real enthusiasts this is very much seen as the upper size limit - almost like trying to squeeze a few more years out of a tree that is ready to move onwards and upwards.

this tree still is in a sumo type proportion so looks ok squeezed in the little pot, but once the trunk base fattens a bit more the shohin days are gone and it will be ready to make a jump up in height and width - i think this is equally important as a chuhin tree 1cm into the catagory just looks like an overgrown shohin!

nice pot for the little tree, keep the bug one for a few years ttime

cheers Marcus

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Post  will baddeley Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:09 pm

Sizes of tree really aren't that precise and Shohin fits into that theory too. Shohin is as much about the feel of a small tree as it is about size. Shame that Mark and Ritta Cooper is in Japan at the moment as he is far more articulate on this subject
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Post  Andreasdeutscher Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:38 pm

Hi Rob, pot was made by Martin Ašenbrenner, czech potter and bonsai enthusiast.

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Post  Rob Kempinski Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:56 pm

Andreasdeutscher wrote:Hi Rob, pot was made by Martin Ašenbrenner, czech potter and bonsai enthusiast.

Hi Andreasdeutscher, Thanks for the info. I will make a note of that.
I did use the pot, with a chunky Chinese elm - What we call Drake Elm in Florida. This was collected by a club member a few years ago and sold at our club's annual auction. I made a massive chop and originally had it resting flat (rotated about 35degrees counter clockwise from the first photo.) Since roots were only forming on one side, I hollowed it out and tilted it. A friend named it "The Barnacle."

When is a shohin no longer a shohin Elm_in10

The before shot several years ago.
When is a shohin no longer a shohin Chines11
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Post  carlos Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:03 pm

Pardon me for saying so, but I saw a bit more potential before reducing the tree's height.

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Post  Rob Kempinski Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:06 pm

carlos wrote:Pardon me for saying so, but I saw a bit more potential before reducing the tree's height.

No problem, you want to buy it? Very Happy Very Happy
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Post  carlos Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:09 pm

Rob Kempinski wrote:
carlos wrote:Pardon me for saying so, but I saw a bit more potential before reducing the tree's height.

No problem, you want to buy it? Very Happy Very Happy

not really

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Post  Rob Kempinski Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:19 pm

carlos wrote:
Rob Kempinski wrote:
carlos wrote:Pardon me for saying so, but I saw a bit more potential before reducing the tree's height.

No problem, you want to buy it? Very Happy Very Happy

not really

Shucks, I figured you could grow it in the ground for 5 or 10 years and recapture its potential. Oh well.
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Post  Orion Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:54 pm

The more I look at it, the more I like that little fatty warts and all.
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