Trying to rectify

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  bucknbonsai on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:01 pm

Robert wrote:
The way to see if your deciduous bonsai are good or not, look like a big mature tree in nature or not..defoliate it..as what is done by Jun, then you will realize how the correct ramification structure play the key rule....


walter paul at the northcarolina bonsai expo this year had a powerpoint slideshow doing this very thing. he would photoshop his naturalistic style trees into landscapes and would photoshop classical Japanese trees into landscapes. It proved his point so well that it actually became comical by the end of the presentation. The whole talk was amazing, wish it was on you tube or DVD or something.

bucknbonsai
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Rob Kempinski on Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:31 pm

I don't use the strict Lingnan technique but do use a lot of clip and grow and some wire on Ficus trees. They grow so fast that wire has to come off fairly quickly.

Here is a Willow Leaf Fig (Ficus nerifolia) that I "rectified" Very Happy this weekend. Sometimes trees have to be taken back to the basics structure and reworked. (Sorry no before photo). This tree is actually bigger than it looks - about 30 inches tall.


Rob Kempinski
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  RYUGA on Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:38 pm

Just to share with you the typical Lingnan bonsai.




RYUGA
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Hans van Meer. on Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:03 pm

Sam Ogranaja wrote:
Lingnan technique takes a loong time. Jun is lucky to be in tropical weather. Lingnan technique in my neck of the woods would take at least three times as long.
Sam

True! And on a lot of species the large wounds that are inevitable with this method, would never heal over properly! And would leave nasty half health scares or even wurse, bulging scares!
Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

Hans van Meer.
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  jrodriguez on Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:19 pm

jun wrote:Hi Sam.

several examples were posted at Rob's designed contest here a month ago I think.

As per Master Min Hsuan Lo's trees, They are perfect alright. and were done with combination of wiring and with clip and grow technique. (maybe Jose Luis can provide more detailed answer). It is different from Lingnan trees.

...There are really different types/styles of creating bonsai, and the more you study each the more complicated it gets hehehe. Embarassed and the Taiwanese have mastered their own approach quite unique to them, but are now being adopted in many countries, ours included.


regards,
jun Smile

Jun,

Yes, Taiwanese use a combination of "Grow and Cut" techniques and terminal wiring. Because of the nature of each species, styling techniques may vary. Usually, with tropical trees and broad leaf species, wire is set on terminal buds, pointed in the wanted direction and they are left to grow again until the desired girth is reached. Once this happens, the process is repeated. Heavy wiring is only performed once the tree has developed at least 2/3 of the main branch structure. On another note, the same 2/3 are developed in grow pots. Placement into a bonsai pot is only among the last steps in bonsai creation. Two important qualities are achieved by performing the aforementioned:

1) adequate/proportional branching

2) healthy root system aided by the sacrificial trunks

3) no scars or 'trunk chops', as they are healed by periodical sacrificail branches

Kind regards,

Jose Luis

jrodriguez
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  bucknbonsai on Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:50 pm

jose,
Your last line about sacrifice branches healing wounds is something i have always been curious about, and would appreciate if you can help me with it. What happens when your done with a sacrifice branch and you cut it off, you get a scar right? so where does it get you? All of my trees are in the field growing stage and due to the above listed question/problem my current theory to to try to use lots of small sacrifice branches as the wounds may heal faster and give the same taper that 1 fat sacrifice branch would. However I dont know if its working good enough or not. Some wounds I will try to create uro with and some I guess will eventually heal over. Some of my favorite trees in nature are covered with natural uro, and giant knobs where bark completely grew over scars, so i dont see anything "unnatural" about having trees with those characteristics.
thanks

bucknbonsai
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Rob Kempinski on Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:48 pm

bucknbonsai wrote:jose,
Your last line about sacrifice branches healing wounds is something i have always been curious about, and would appreciate if you can help me with it. What happens when your done with a sacrifice branch and you cut it off, you get a scar right? so where does it get you?

Yes there is a scar when a sacrifice branch is removed but in theory it will be in a place you control and hopefully somewhere unobtrusive. If you keep the sacrifice branches relatively small and replace them then the scar won't be too big. For fast growing trees the scars might heal in time. For trees that don't heal well, the scar can be made into a feature of the tree via a hole or via carving.

bucknbonsai wrote:jose,
All of my trees are in the field growing stage and due to the above listed question/problem my current theory to to try to use lots of small sacrifice branches as the wounds may heal faster and give the same taper that 1 fat sacrifice branch would. However I dont know if its working good enough or not. Some wounds I will try to create uro with and some I guess will eventually heal over. Some of my favorite trees in nature are covered with natural uro, and giant knobs where bark completely grew over scars, so i dont see anything "unnatural" about having trees with those characteristics.
thanks

Agreed.

Rob Kempinski
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  reg-i on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:13 pm

Jun, Thank you for bringing up this topic it really gave me some insight

reg-i
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:16 pm

reg-i wrote:Jun, Thank you for bringing up this topic it really gave me some insight

Amen Reggie. Keep it coming guys.
~Sam

Sam Ogranaja
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  jrodriguez on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:26 pm

Bucknbonsai,

First and foremost, I never made any remark regarding the presence of uro, scarring or any other similar characteristic as unnatural. I was merely explaining the process of shaping branches as I have learned it. I believe that there is room for everything in bonsai art.

If you wish an integral/scar free bonsai, when you field grow your material, you have to plan your branch design as well as the approximate size if the final product ahead of time. Because branches taper, while you develop them using grow and cut techniques, the terminal scar as well as the subsequent sacrificial branches will be smaller and smaller. If done right, the final product will not have scars.

There are other ways to heal big cuts on trees. Circular scars do no allow adequate sap flow. In order to stimulate healing, like surgeons do on operations, the ends of the wound are extended outwards to the shape of an eye. These elongated wounds allow better sap flow, thus promoting healing tissue. Usually, people are scared to remove the bark to elongate the ends of the wound thinking that they will only end with a bigger scar. This is false. Althought a higher percentage of the cambium layer is exposed, the elongated ends of the wound will allow faster flow of sap. Like I mentioned before, it will promote fast and complete healing.

Warm regards,

Jose Luis

jrodriguez
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:03 am

jrodriguez wrote:Bucknbonsai,

First and foremost, I never made any remark regarding the presence of uro, scarring or any other similar characteristic as unnatural. I was merely explaining the process of shaping branches as I have learned it. I believe that there is room for everything in bonsai art.

If you wish an integral/scar free bonsai, when you field grow your material, you have to plan your branch design as well as the approximate size if the final product ahead of time. Because branches taper, while you develop them using grow and cut techniques, the terminal scar as well as the subsequent sacrificial branches will be smaller and smaller. If done right, the final product will not have scars.

There are other ways to heal big cuts on trees. Circular scars do no allow adequate sap flow. In order to stimulate healing, like surgeons do on operations, the ends of the wound are extended outwards to the shape of an eye. These elongated wounds allow better sap flow, thus promoting healing tissue. Usually, people are scared to remove the bark to elongate the ends of the wound thinking that they will only end with a bigger scar. This is false. Althought a higher percentage of the cambium layer is exposed, the elongated ends of the wound will allow faster flow of sap. Like I mentioned before, it will promote fast and complete healing.

Warm regards,

Jose Luis

...now this is very informative, technical but very useful even for beginners.

thanks Jose Luis!
I have a question though, I am frequently using sacrificial branches,,,,but sacrificial trunk? I heard of it before, but not so sure how proceed with it...Is it growing a trunk then cutting it off after the desired girth is achieved? or there is another explanation for this technique. this will surely leave a big scar right?.



regards,
jun Smile


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:48 am

Jun, It uses the the same principle as to the sacrificial branches, but ofcourse it will take much longer time with better planning.
Please see one of my Elm here, the entire trunk tapering was done by this technique, as well as on the branches; and look at all the scars, they are all from the cut and grow process. At the end, these will also add the aging texture to the bark.





and this is on my Premna...



Last edited by Robert Steven on Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:50 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : mistype)

Robert Steven
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  elmermateo on Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:25 am

Hi IBC, i'm also fascinated with the Ling Nam Penjing, while searching about this topic, i found these 24 rules of penjing on this site http://www.manlungpenjing.org/eng-pid-frame.html, and here it is

The Artistic Conception And The Implicated Significance
By Dan Tim Mak

Ling Nam Clique of potted landscape modeling skills (craftsmanship, rules & principles), This can be summarized to twenty-four pithy formulae as follow:

1 Conception by material � Design upon different shape and post of the wood stock material to decide its future developing profile.

2 Modeling by looking around � View with different angles before making decisions. Viewing clearly from front to back, left to right to decide the best modeling plan.

3 Keep momentum consistence � While in the process of breeding and modeling, keep eyes open on the harmony and consistency to the positions of branches and trunks. Do not let the momentum confused.

4 To echo primary & secondary � For the integral scenario, there should be primary and secondary relationships between branches and trunks. They echo between each other's. Avoid diffusing the integration of the structure.

5 Outstanding the levels � Ling Nam modeling not emphasis on densely populated, but required for the outstanding of its delicate levels.

6 Differentiate the weighing � Modeling, arrangement, branches and trunks have their master and slave relationship and different weighing, this should be taking care of.
7 To harmonize left and right � The arrangement should have left and right, but the left and right should give consideration to each other to become consistence and harmony.
8 Balance for thick and thin � No matter it is trunks or branches we have to balance the thickness and thinness in their natural ratios.
9 To look after the front and back � Not only we have to take care of the harmony of left and right in an arrangement, but also we have to take care of the front and back. Mind the balance of each other and do not stress only on one side.

10 Remarking for up and down � We also have to pay attention to up and down. Up means to manage the top of the plant and down means to manage the root of the plant.

11 Exaggerate the rules � Rules mean the creation rules, we can use realistic rules (e.g. profile of a natural tree) or we can use exaggerated creation rules.
12 Matching the ratio � Pay attention to match each other's, such as the size and ratios of trees, huts and figures.
13 Various lengths between nodes � The clique of Ling Nam ask for the section between each nodes of the branches or trunks to be grow naturally to different lengths but not all identical.

14 Thickness of branches � Ling Nam Clique of potted landscape: all trunks and branches are showing different thickness in natural harmonized growing process.

15 Tortuous extension � When trimming or extending trunks and branches, it ask for tortuous and variation, but not stiffness or too soft.
16 Swaying the alignment � When managing the alignment of branches and trunks, this not only ask for tortuous, but also swaying. Besides, this can make the momentum become alive and verdant.
17 Respect primary & secondary � In case of running the extension of branches and trunks, sometimes it would come across the situation of two or three branches competing for a position. Then we must yield one to accommodate the other.

18 Be courteous when competing � Courteous means rules. When the above mentioned competing cannot be yield. Let the primary win.
19 Make appropriate density � When distributing trunks and branches, we have to make the density appropriate to the scene.
20 Make suitable concentration � The modeling and scenario should have suitable concentration and distribution. This rule is similar to the rule of density.
21 Make alive for virtual & reality � In Chinese painting, we emphasize on leaving blanks, this also works for Ling Nam Clique of potted landscape. It blended with the sentiment of poems and paintings, emphasis on the effect of virtual and reality.
22 The effect of hard and soft � In Ling Nam modeling, we can use the variation of hard and soft to help each other to let the momentum of branches to be strong and alive.
23 Make suitable high and low � The position that support the branches, should be in a suitable height and thickness ratio of natural breeding.
24 Harmonize the strength � The top of the plant, thickness of branches and roots, and their strength ratio should be set to natural and harmonize.

I hope this will help in your discussion, more power to IBC...

elmermateo
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Rob Kempinski on Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:30 am

jun wrote:

I have a question though, I am frequently using sacrificial branches,,,,but sacrificial trunk? I heard of it before, but not so sure how proceed with it...Is it growing a trunk then cutting it off after the desired girth is achieved? or there is another explanation for this technique. this will surely leave a big scar right?.
regards,
jun Smile

It is very common to use a sacrificial trunk, but realize that chopping the trunk will leave a larger scar and require more work, or time to resolve.
For example, pretty much every JBP I've grown from seed has had a sacrificial trunk to establish trunk girth. The red line in this image shows the position of the original trunk on this Japanese Black Pine seedling that I have been growing for over 10 years. The trunk extension probably reached 8 to 10 feet tall before chopping it. The chop where the original trunk was has since totally healed over. In fact the second trunk chop has healed over too. The angled line shows the original soil planting angle.


Rob Kempinski
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  my nellie on Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:40 am

elmermateo wrote: ... ...
18 Be courteous when competing � Courteous means rules. When the above mentioned competing cannot be yield. Let the primary win.
... ... I hope this will help in your discussion, more power to IBC...

Thank you elmermateo!

Rule nr. 18 is really applicable on every aspect of our lives, not only on Lingnan penjing styling or bonsai alone...
And yes, More Power to IBC! Very Happy


PS: You are welcome on IBC by the way.

my nellie
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  jrodriguez on Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:50 am

Jun,

Perhaps you are referring to the concept of 'sacrificial trunk shari' on junipers. If so, it is an entirely different subject.

The concept of sacrificial trunk on decidious trees is exactly how Robert Steven said. On conifers, it is a bit similar to what Robert Kempinski manifested.

When it comes to field grown junipers, you often hear the term " sacrificial trunk of the first generation". This refers to the original trunk line of the tree. This trunk line is substituted by a subsequent trunk or lateral branch, thus achieving movement and taper. While observing Taiwanese junipers, please note the Jin and shari line. Most of the Jin and shari, at least the gross amount, is performed on this 'first generation trunk' or "sacrificial trunk of the first generation".

In Robert Kempinski's tree, the sacrificial trunk is no longer present, at is was just used as an energy producing branch to fatten the trunk. The remaining branches have also contributed to closing the original scar. By doing this, Robert Kempinski achieved geneational taper, very much in the same way as broad leaf or tropical trees are trained using this method. (By the way, I am using the last names to differ Rob Kempinski from Robert Steven. In any way or fashion i mean it as a sign of disrecpect)

In Robert Stevens Mao Pu (I believe it is a Celtis not an elm), portions of the sacrificial branches have become part of the trunk line. The remaining structure will be built outwards, always keeping part of the branch/trunk until you finish the frame work.

Remember, Chinese culture is millenary. The concept of generations is quite important and is regarded highly. The is transported to Pentsai/bonsai. It is what truly represents age in a composition. For example, we often see a mighty trunk bonsai with skinny branches. In the Chinese perspective, there is a serious generational gap, as the oldest generation is coexisting side by side with the youngest and without the middle generations. By combining lignan techniques with positional wire, you will achieve a product that does not leave generational gaps.

On another note, I am aware that it takes a long time. In order to see faster results, while constructing your larger specimens, build a few shohin bonsai. You will see faster results and be encouraged to continue resolution of your larger specimens.

Warm regards,

Jose Luis


jrodriguez
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:23 pm

jrodriguez wrote:Jun,

Perhaps you are referring to the concept of 'sacrificial trunk shari' on junipers. If so, it is an entirely different subject.

The concept of sacrificial trunk on decidious trees is exactly how Robert Steven said. On conifers, it is a bit similar to what Robert Kempinski manifested.

When it comes to field grown junipers, you often hear the term " sacrificial trunk of the first generation". This refers to the original trunk line of the tree. This trunk line is substituted by a subsequent trunk or lateral branch, thus achieving movement and taper. While observing Taiwanese junipers, please note the Jin and shari line. Most of the Jin and shari, at least the gross amount, is performed on this 'first generation trunk' or "sacrificial trunk of the first generation".

In Robert Kempinski's tree, the sacrificial trunk is no longer present, at is was just used as an energy producing branch to fatten the trunk. The remaining branches have also contributed to closing the original scar. By doing this, Robert Kempinski achieved geneational taper, very much in the same way as broad leaf or tropical trees are trained using this method. (By the way, I am using the last names to differ Rob Kempinski from Robert Steven. In any way or fashion i mean it as a sign of disrecpect)

In Robert Stevens Mao Pu (I believe it is a Celtis not an elm), portions of the sacrificial branches have become part of the trunk line. The remaining structure will be built outwards, always keeping part of the branch/trunk until you finish the frame work.

Remember, Chinese culture is millenary. The concept of generations is quite important and is regarded highly. The is transported to Pentsai/bonsai. It is what truly represents age in a composition. For example, we often see a mighty trunk bonsai with skinny branches. In the Chinese perspective, there is a serious generational gap, as the oldest generation is coexisting side by side with the youngest and without the middle generations. By combining lignan techniques with positional wire, you will achieve a product that does not leave generational gaps.

On another note, I am aware that it takes a long time. In order to see faster results, while constructing your larger specimens, build a few shohin bonsai. You will see faster results and be encouraged to continue resolution of your larger specimens.

Warm regards,

Jose Luis



Now we got "family issues" and "generation gap issues"....It is getting more complicated Sad


....But the "generation gap" (the real ones) I am getting more accustomed to, because of IBC.hehehe! Razz


regards,
jun Smile

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Poink88 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:28 pm

Excellent discussion and tutorials. Bookmarked!!! cheers

Poink88
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Robert Steven on Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:37 pm

jrodriguez wrote:

Remember, Chinese culture is millenary. The concept of generations is quite important and is regarded highly. The is transported to Pentsai/bonsai. It is what truly represents age in a composition. For example, we often see a mighty trunk bonsai with skinny branches. In the Chinese perspective, there is a serious generational gap, as the oldest generation is coexisting side by side with the youngest and without the middle generations. By combining lignan techniques with positional wire, you will achieve a product that does not leave generational gaps.

Jose Luis


I have never heart about this generation gap philosophy in China..I wonder this is just an excuse for being impatient to grow the thicker branches, knowing that Chinese likes massive huge bonsai, and it takes lifetime to obtain the proportional structure... At least I won't put this in my coming book about penjing... pale

Robert Steven
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Fore on Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:50 pm

[quote="Robert Steven"]Jun, It uses the the same principle as to the sacrificial branches, but ofcourse it will take much longer time with better planning.
Please see one of my Elm here, the entire trunk tapering was done by this technique, as well as on the branches; and look at all the scars, they are all from the cut and grow process. At the end, these will also add the aging texture to the bark.[/url]

So Robert, are you saying those scars on that elm will eventually not be visible once the trunk matures?

Fore
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  coh on Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:58 pm

jrodriguez wrote:There are other ways to heal big cuts on trees. Circular scars do no allow adequate sap flow. In order to stimulate healing, like surgeons do on operations, the ends of the wound are extended outwards to the shape of an eye. These elongated wounds allow better sap flow, thus promoting healing tissue. Usually, people are scared to remove the bark to elongate the ends of the wound thinking that they will only end with a bigger scar. This is false. Althought a higher percentage of the cambium layer is exposed, the elongated ends of the wound will allow faster flow of sap. Like I mentioned before, it will promote fast and complete healing.

Warm regards,

Jose Luis

Can you elaborate a bit on this technique? Do you extend the wound horizontally (across the trunk) or vertically (along the trunk)? And what do you do, just remove the top layer of bark? Do you have any photos of this process (along with the resulting healed scar)?

coh
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  jrodriguez on Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:21 pm

Robert Steven wrote:
jrodriguez wrote:

Remember, Chinese culture is millenary. The concept of generations is quite important and is regarded highly. The is transported to Pentsai/bonsai. It is what truly represents age in a composition. For example, we often see a mighty trunk bonsai with skinny branches. In the Chinese perspective, there is a serious generational gap, as the oldest generation is coexisting side by side with the youngest and without the middle generations. By combining lignan techniques with positional wire, you will achieve a product that does not leave generational gaps.

Jose Luis


I have never heart about this generation gap philosophy in China..I wonder this is just an excuse for being impatient to grow the thicker branches, knowing that Chinese likes massive huge bonsai, and it takes lifetime to obtain the proportional structure... At least I won't put this in my coming book about penjing... pale

Robert,

Well, this has been manifested to me many times in Taiwan. Often, the topic comes up when we talk about quickly ramified bonsai. This concept is not that different from your descriptions and philosophy regarding trees that revert to an inmature state. As you statet in your book, it takes some time until the tree becomes mature again. Perhaps it was explained to me using a family tree as an analogy. If so, it is a very good way of explaining the concept.

Perhaps you should reconsider this fact and try to incorporate it, using your own perspective in your upcoming book. It is a topic that has seldom been talked about.

Warm regards,

Jose Luis


Last edited by jrodriguez on Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:47 pm; edited 2 times in total

jrodriguez
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  jrodriguez on Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:41 pm

coh wrote:
jrodriguez wrote:There are other ways to heal big cuts on trees. Circular scars do no allow adequate sap flow. In order to stimulate healing, like surgeons do on operations, the ends of the wound are extended outwards to the shape of an eye. These elongated wounds allow better sap flow, thus promoting healing tissue. Usually, people are scared to remove the bark to elongate the ends of the wound thinking that they will only end with a bigger scar. This is false. Althought a higher percentage of the cambium layer is exposed, the elongated ends of the wound will allow faster flow of sap. Like I mentioned before, it will promote fast and complete healing.

Warm regards,

Jose Luis

Can you elaborate a bit on this technique? Do you extend the wound horizontally (across the trunk) or vertically (along the trunk)? And what do you do, just remove the top layer of bark? Do you have any photos of this process (along with the resulting healed scar)?

The scars are made vertically, taking into consideration the sap flow of the tree. Usually, it is a longitudinal cut in the shape of an eye. In order to illustrate the process, y have made a drawing using the paint program (excuse the poor rendition) of what i am talking about:



The round cut represents a scar as left by concave cutter or ordinary pruners. The red arrow represent sap flow. As you can see, the ends of the cut are made a bit longer, resembling an eye. Because the end are not as blunt and are made narrower, sap flow is revitalized in that particular area, thus promoting scar tissue.

Warm regards,

Jose Luis

jrodriguez
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  coh on Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:05 pm

Thanks for the clarification! I figured it would have to be vertically-oriented, but wanted to make sure.

coh
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  bucknbonsai on Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:38 pm

jose, this might seem like a stupid question but is there any ratio of wound size to how deep it should be? When removing large limbs there is no knob cutters big enough so I often grind down the area as a concavity, All the books say make it concave but how do you know "HOW" concave to make it, to produce a situation that the bark heals as fast as possible without to large of a scar. Should wounds on thinner barked trees be less concave than tridents for example? thanks.

bucknbonsai
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Sponsored content Today at 1:58 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum