Trying to rectify

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Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:08 am

Hi IBC.

I have some conversation with my recently new found friend Wink I tried my best to absorb some of his quick teachings. and one of them is issue
he frequently tried to impart is ramification. After he left I tried to take a second look at my trees and tried to rectify the faults I committed for years. Sad ouch!










removed some of the very old branches... Crying or Very sad Sad

















I am really fascinated by the Lingnan practice...I am trying to learn as much as I could study



regards,
jun Smile


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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Andre Beaurain on Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:19 am

Morning Jun

What is the Lignan parctice, excuse my ignorance, but I'm here to learn.

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Ebbtide on Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:40 am

Andre Beaurain wrote:Morning Jun

What is the Lignan parctice, excuse my ignorance, but I'm here to learn.



Here's the link: http://www.indybonsai.org/page120.html



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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Gina on Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:35 pm

Ebbtide wrote:
Andre Beaurain wrote:Morning Jun

What is the Lignan parctice, excuse my ignorance, but I'm here to learn.



Here's the link: http://www.indybonsai.org/page120.html



I've read that before, but my search to find more information has been fruitless. Is there any information on this practice that can help me with styling my trees? When I go to workshops here, I am always told to wire everything, even thin trunks on seedlings and small cuttings, but I really want to learn more about clip-and-grow.

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:12 pm

Gina wrote:
Ebbtide wrote:
Andre Beaurain wrote:Morning Jun

What is the Lignan parctice, excuse my ignorance, but I'm here to learn.



Here's the link: http://www.indybonsai.org/page120.html



I've read that before, but my search to find more information has been fruitless. Is there any information on this practice that can help me with styling my trees? When I go to workshops here, I am always told to wire everything, even thin trunks on seedlings and small cuttings, but I really want to learn more about clip-and-grow.



Welcome to the forum Gina!
You will enjoy this forum sometimes Razz


Seriously though, Lingnan style of doing bonsai is the most brutal form of creating bonsai...but very effective in creating ramification and tapering branches.

Some "more" expert than me will surely answer your query soon, so watch out.

Here we are basically committing the same "mistake" of wiring everything on tropical trees...and even creating a single apex or single apical dominance. Which my expert friend told me is more applicable to conifer/pine trees. and this single apex cannot be found on deciduous trees in nature. the reason for this typical misconception is our basic knowledge of creating bonsai from the Japanese point of view.
Lingnan style is the opposite of what we were thought was "right"...clip and grow is the more appropriate way of doing tropical trees.
A tree grown using this technique is more natural looking than trees created thru "wiring everything" technique (just my opinion maybe). Trees designed in Lingnan technique, looks like a tree from afar even when defoliated, this is the same reason why trees done in this procedure is shown mostly without leaves to show how well the ramification were done rather than covering the tree with foliage.

regards,
jun Smile





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trying to rectify

Post  moyogijohn on Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:15 pm

JUN,, YOU lost a lot of branches,,is that what you are going for ?? i may would have trimed them bot not cut them off.. my opion only...the tree looks good post again when it has leaves please..take care john

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:20 pm

moyogijohn wrote:JUN,, YOU lost a lot of branches,,is that what you are going for ?? i may would have trimed them bot not cut them off.. my opion only...the tree looks good post again when it has leaves please..take care john


Hi John!
That is basically the idea...of clip and grow method. Just Grow them and Clip them, then grow them then clip them.
I'll post additional photo later to explain the idea.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:23 pm

Andre Beaurain wrote:Morning Jun

What is the Lignan parctice, excuse my ignorance, but I'm here to learn.

Thank you for the interest!

I hope "more" expert can explain further the detailed concept. I will try to explain it with my limited knowledge... Razz study

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:35 pm

Hi John and others.

this is how the old branch terminal looks like.





new terminals...main branch will have 2 secondary branches, secondary branches will have 2 tertiary branches each and so on an so forth...


Tapering branch thru clip and grow method


regards,
jun Smile


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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Poink88 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:59 pm

Jun,

You have a great advantage being in a tropical area...wish we all can grow as long as you can.

I try to do the same on my trees and use clip and grow as much as possible. I do wire a bit as well to get the most out of the growth as I can. I have been brutal in my trimming/pruning (esp on my yamadori) but I still cannot bring myself to do what you just did...that is a lot of ramified branches removed! affraid

I believe you know what you are doing and will eventually result in a much better tree...it is just such a big step back that I cannot see myself doing just yet. Your progress might help me (and others) take the big leap though so please keep us posted.

Thank you.

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  my nellie on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:05 pm

...."Master & Mister" you have written elsewhere, Jun, haven't you? Very Happy
So Mister, why is that you call "clip n' grow" brutal? More brutal than wiring? More brutal than using those surgical methods for bending thick branches?
I don't think so, my friend.

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:54 pm

Wow Jun. I think that's a significant improvement. Great job. I wish I could have picked your "friends" brain as well. Probably so much knowledge there it might prove hard to retain all that information. Probably like trying to drink water from a fire hose.

Alexandra, I think Jun means brutal as in the aspect "time", Jun correct me if I'm wrong. Lingnan technique takes a loong time. Jun is lucky to be in tropical weather. Lingnan technique in my neck of the woods would take at least three times as long.

Have a great week everyone!!!
Sam

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:31 am

Poink88 wrote:Jun,

You have a great advantage being in a tropical area...wish we all can grow as long as you can.

I try to do the same on my trees and use clip and grow as much as possible. I do wire a bit as well to get the most out of the growth as I can. I have been brutal in my trimming/pruning (esp on my yamadori) but I still cannot bring myself to do what you just did...that is a lot of ramified branches removed! affraid

I believe you know what you are doing and will eventually result in a much better tree...it is just such a big step back that I cannot see myself doing just yet. Your progress might help me (and others) take the big leap though so please keep us posted.

Thank you.

Come back here then! Razz


...You think I know what I am doing?? No I don't! Razz Razz Just kidding. if you are doing bonsai in a tropical area, using this method is rather the opposite of stepping back. theoretically, Wiring "everything" on tropical trees here is more of a shortcut. Before, most of my trees can be "finished" in just two to three years. but with clip and grow I am assuming it would triple my time.
I am beginning to understand now what "he" meant that most tropical trees that are not properly ramified well gets younger and younger each year instead of getting more matured as the time pass by. The truth hurts and difficult to accept even for me, but after analyzing my previous problems and looking back at the trees I made. I am now more ready accepting the fact that most of my time doing bonsai are wasted. The Japanese way are not my way...all my Japanese books will spend more time now in my shelves. and Chinese books will be used more frequently.

Yes I will keep you updated.

regards,
jun Smile




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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:40 am

Yes Sam you are right. Thanks! that is one of the aspect of "brutality".

Alexandra,
Imagine you will grow the major branches for a 2 foot high tree, just lightly positioning the primary branches in the proper direction. then you grow them several meters for a year or two. then when you got the desired thickness, you will cut back the branch and keep just 2 to 3 inches of that branch. then you grow the secondary branch without wiring them again maybe for less than two years this time, then cut them back again and keep maybe 2 inches. and then the process will be repeated several times.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  bucknbonsai on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:58 am

jun, when you cut the branches back and then let new sprouts regrow, are you putting a tiny wire on the new sprout for just a couple weeks so the new sprout will grow horizontal rather than vertical? Would doing this technique on field grown trees be a bad idea because the internodes would be to long d/t their growth being to rampant? I feel canopies on tropicals are not much different than canopies on deciduous so do you think this technique would work well on tridents or privet or elms in zone 7? What about other deciduous that are slower growers like carpinus? Im only 30 so if it takes a while, thats fine, im not looking for any instant results.

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  my nellie on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:44 am

Jun, Sam, thank you for the clarification.

jun wrote: ... ... I am now more ready accepting the fact that most of my time doing bonsai are wasted. The Japanese way are not my way... ....
Well, not my way also. Years ago, when I first began my research concerning bonsai the "chinese way" has fascinated me. Then, what knowledge I have been able to collect was presenting wiring as the only path, so the chinese way stayed at the back of my head. But it's been some time that I made a new research on the net about lingnan precisely since I have read some articles of "your Master friend", Jun. And now I know exactly the way I want to keep on going... The archaegonos (primal, i.e.) lingnan penjing!

So, everybody are looking forward to the updates! Very Happy

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  my nellie on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:14 am

Ebbtide wrote:
Andre Beaurain wrote:Morning Jun
What is the Lignan parctice, excuse my ignorance, but I'm here to learn.
Here's the link: http://www.indybonsai.org/page120.html
In this context, I would like to further contribute by quoting this : Chinese Schools of Penjing. I believe it's interesting and absolutely informative about chinese culture. So, lingnan it's the "southern way" Very Happy

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:18 pm

Yes Alexandra. Southern part of China is semi tropical conducive for this technique. and the northern part is the opposite, there the trees are more similar to the trees grown in colder climate like pines and conifer. and the styles are also quite different.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:27 pm

bucknbonsai wrote:jun, when you cut the branches back and then let new sprouts regrow, are you putting a tiny wire on the new sprout for just a couple weeks so the new sprout will grow horizontal rather than vertical? Would doing this technique on field grown trees be a bad idea because the internodes would be to long d/t their growth being to rampant? I feel canopies on tropicals are not much different than canopies on deciduous so do you think this technique would work well on tridents or privet or elms in zone 7? What about other deciduous that are slower growers like carpinus? Im only 30 so if it takes a while, thats fine, im not looking for any instant results.

I believe it can be done also with other trees as long as they respond to clip and grow technique. branches of Lingnan grown trees are more zigzag in form and not necessarily horizontal.

regards,
jun


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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:01 pm

Jun, do you have any good examples of Lingnan technique? The trees of Min Hsuan Lo, are those developed using that technique? His trees are very impressive.

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:33 pm

Hi Sam.

several examples were posted at Rob's designed contest here a month ago I think.

As per Master Min Hsuan Lo's trees, They are perfect alright. and were done with combination of wiring and with clip and grow technique. (maybe Jose Luis can provide more detailed answer). It is different from Lingnan trees.

...There are really different types/styles of creating bonsai, and the more you study each the more complicated it gets hehehe. Embarassed and the Taiwanese have mastered their own approach quite unique to them, but are now being adopted in many countries, ours included.


regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Robert Steven on Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:10 pm

..... bounce ...would like to write something...but just damn busy with my new project...huh.... pale

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  kauaibonsai on Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:20 pm

looking good. jun

best wishes, sam

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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Robert Steven on Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:36 pm

moyogijohn wrote:JUN,, YOU lost a lot of branches,,is that what you are going for ?? i may would have trimed them bot not cut them off.. my opion only...the tree looks good post again when it has leaves please..take care john

Trim..prun..this is the basic mistake on most of the deciduous bonsai done. Most of the deciduous bonsai are trimed and prunned like doing hair cut without working on the ramification structure. What make a bonsai looks "mature" is by the ramification structure and not by the foliage. A bonsai with good ramification structure will look much "mature" and natural even without leaves rather than covered with dense foliage.

The basic technique of Lingnan style is the "clip-and-grow" technique; and the best way to trim and prun a deciduous bonsai is by defoliate it, then work on the structure details.
Deciduous trees are not "apical dominant" in their trunk and branches structure, but many people make mistake by train them in "apical dominant" manner like connifers, either on the overall shape or the ramification structure, that's what Jun said as "the Japanese way", and that's why very few deciduous bonsai are as natural look as the Chinese Lingnan bonsai.

The way to see if your deciduous bonsai are good or not, look like a big mature tree in nature or not..defoliate it..as what is done by Jun, then you will realize how the correct ramification structure play the key rule....




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Re: Trying to rectify

Post  Poink88 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:04 pm

I am loving this discussion.

Please keep it coming...someone (maybe more than you know) is listening, absorbing, and learning.

My first introduction to this are the yamadori videos of Sebastijan Sandev. I watched in awe at what he collects and earlier thought he was crazy for pruning the trees as hard as he did. I later learned the lesson from it and I cannot thank him enough. Most will collect and trim trees back only to (almost) the finished size or save nice branches even if they are off which is a HUGE mistake. The bones/structure is what he is leaving behind and built the meat and skin (ramification & foliage) on top of it later. I see the mistake on trees posted here (sadly) by more advanced members...where bonsai is created concentrating on foliage outline and not the branch structure.

I know I am a newbie who didn't earn the right to say this yet, but I only described what I see. (I now run and hide back to my hole)

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Re: Trying to rectify

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