̉Lime sulfur banned in US

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Marija Hajdic on Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:03 pm

Lime sulphur is in fact calcium polysulfide formed by reacting calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) with sulfur. Those 2 harmless components you can buy everywere and mix them.
This is the recipe that I am using for 10 years:
8 dl of water + 57 g slaked lime, mix and put on fire untill it boils, then ad 85 g of sulfur and mix all together on light fire for 30 minutes.



Last edited by Marija Hajdic on Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  wabashene on Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:06 pm

[quote="Joao Santos"]
mike page wrote:
Hi Mike,

Could you show us some pictures of the walnut oil effect

Thanks

João Santos

Hi Joao,

I use linseed oil in the same way. All the deadwood on this ligustrum/Privet has been treated with it.

I now apply clear wood preserver each year to preserve the colour.

No signs of rot for the last 3 years.

You will see that the colour looks quite natural.

Thks

TimR


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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Bob Pressler on Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:47 pm

I don't quite understand why it's so hard to get a definitive answer but there seems to be something going on. It may be that one of the major manufactures in no longer producing it or its getting banned I don't know and have gotten nothing but conflicting stories. I do know that none of the local nursery suppliers can get any more- they're selling (sold) old stock and then thats it.
I wouldn't stock up too much, I don't think it has more than a couple of years shelf life and a pint bottle goes a long way when only used for deadwood.
I've been experimenting with Minwax wood hardener for a couple of years. Once you get over the initial shock of it making the wood look like shiny plastic it seems to die down to a unnoticeable finish after a month or so and seems to be working on preserving the wood. So far I've only used it on dead trunks and a few small trees. I'm comfortable enough with it now that this year I'll start using it on my CA Junipers which are mostly deadwood in some cases.

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Joao Santos on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:16 pm

[quote="wabashene"]
Joao Santos wrote:
mike page wrote:
Hi Mike,

Could you show us some pictures of the walnut oil effect

Thanks

João Santos

Hi Joao,

I use linseed oil in the same way. All the deadwood on this ligustrum/Privet has been treated with it.

I now apply clear wood preserver each year to preserve the colour.

No signs of rot for the last 3 years.

You will see that the colour looks quite natural.

Thks

TimR


Hi Tim

Even that oil, you use after have used the lime sulphur, correct? This is only to "maintain", right?

João Santos

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Joao Santos on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:22 pm

Marija Hajdic wrote:Lime sulphur is in fact calcium polysulfide formed by reacting calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) with sulfur. Those 2 harmless components you can buy everywere and mix them.
This is the recipe that I am using for 10 years:
8 dl of water + 57 g slaked lime, mix and put on fire untill it boils, then ad 85 g of sulfur and mix all together on light fire for 30 minutes.


Hi Marija

I've heard about this recepie too but it won't last for much long, right?

Sorry for all this askings but I'm just starting for about two years yamadory and next summer I'll need some deadwood work and preserve.


João Santos

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Marija Hajdic on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:29 pm

Joao Santos wrote:
Marija Hajdic wrote:Lime sulphur is in fact calcium polysulfide formed by reacting calcium hydroxide (slaked lime) with sulfur. Those 2 harmless components you can buy everywere and mix them.
This is the recipe that I am using for 10 years:
8 dl of water + 57 g slaked lime, mix and put on fire untill it boils, then ad 85 g of sulfur and mix all together on light fire for 30 minutes.


Hi Marija

I've heard about this recepie too but it won't last for much long, right?

Sorry for all this askings but I'm just starting for about two years yamadory and next summer I'll need some deadwood work and preserve.


João Santos

While producing from 8dl something will evaporate, but at the end you will have more then 1/2 liter of lime sulphur.

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  wabashene on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:25 pm

Joao Santos wrote
Hi Tim

Even that oil, you use after have used the lime sulphur, correct? This is only to "maintain", right?

João Santos

unquote


Ola Joao,

Not correct.

No lime sulfur has been used.

The linseed oil was applied to the fresh carved wood to waterproof it for the first 2 years. This darkened the wood slightly

The last 2-3 years have applied Ronseal type clear wood preserver only. This is solvent based.

The colour has gone more grey.

Hope this helps

Thks TimR

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:43 pm

How about bleaching the wood then applying wood preservative, You'll have the same whitish or greyish (depending on the bleach application) color as lime sulfur gives...plus you'll have a long lasting deadwood.


regards,
jun Smile



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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:58 pm

jun wrote:How about bleaching the wood then applying wood preservative, You'll have the same whitish or greyish (depending on the bleach application) color as lime sulfur gives...plus you'll have a long lasting deadwood.

regards,
jun Smile
Not sure what you use as wood preservative but if you are talking about wood hardener, they are notorious for turning whitish like glossy film when wet. Not too appealing IMHO.

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  JimLewis on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:05 pm

Not if you let the wood hardener dry THOROUGHLY before you water the top of the tree.

Personally, I think the bleached white look is very much overdone in the world of bonsai. If I use LS, I use it once, then let nature take its course. I seldom (almost never) redo or refresh it.

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:17 pm

It happens even if you let it dry thoroughly...esp if moisture can travel from under or inside (as in shari) might work better for jins though.

I agree with the bleached look to be (IMHO) overdone by most. I prefer dead wood with some color variation...different shades is more interesting for me.

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:25 pm

JimLewis wrote:Not if you let the wood hardener dry THOROUGHLY before you water the top of the tree.

Personally, I think the bleached white look is very much overdone in the world of bonsai. If I use LS, I use it once, then let nature take its course. I seldom (almost never) redo or refresh it.

... In the construction works and furniture wood restoration we have a process in controlling the too much white effect of the bleach, or in effect control the chemical reaction of the bleach in the wood. We use 50% water 50% white vinegar. But this needs practice before using it in your precious deadwood. You can even have variation in lightness of the bleach in one surface.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Joao Santos on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:59 pm

JimLewis wrote:Not if you let the wood hardener dry THOROUGHLY before you water the top of the tree.

Personally, I think the bleached white look is very much overdone in the world of bonsai. If I use LS, I use it once, then let nature take its course. I seldom (almost never) redo or refresh it.

Thanks Jim

You say that you almost never repeat LS but you use walnut or linseed oil once in a while to prevent root, correct??


João Santos

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  JimLewis on Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:26 pm

No. Most of the few trees I have used it on are those that don't rot readily (privet is an exception), but then lime sulfur does VERY, VERY little to prevent rot, anyway. The idea that it does, is mostly wishful think. It kills rot fungus maybe for 2 weeks.

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Joao Santos on Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:52 pm

JimLewis wrote:No. Most of the few trees I have used it on are those that don't rot readily (privet is an exception), but then lime sulfur does VERY, VERY little to prevent rot, anyway. The idea that it does, is mostly wishful think. It kills rot fungus maybe for 2 weeks.

Thanks Jim

Always learning Very Happy

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  mike page on Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:57 pm

Link is to images of an oak bonsai with shari treated with walnut oil.

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t8855-treating-shari-on-oak

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lime sulfur ban

Post  jake4bonsai on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:05 pm

Even if it is banned and will no longer be avaiable white acrylic paint with a little black india ink does the same affect and accually lasts longer and also seals the wood. How about that from a one year rookie! Lol.

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Joao Santos on Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:19 pm

JimLewis wrote:No. Most of the few trees I have used it on are those that don't rot readily (privet is an exception), but then lime sulfur does VERY, VERY little to prevent rot, anyway. The idea that it does, is mostly wishful think. It kills rot fungus maybe for 2 weeks.

Hi Jim,

There is one thing more that I could not find the right answer:

We've seen that one can prevent root in various ways in deadwood above soil, but how about under soil?

With junipers like this one for exemple, in many cases you have one single live vein rising above the soil in a massive dead bleached trunk. How one can preserve all the massive trunk below soil level?



I hope you can understand my thought.

Thanks

João Santos[img][/img]

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  JimLewis on Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:38 pm

That always is a problem. Using a marine epoxy or wood hardener will help, of course, but mostly you have to rely upon soil that doesn't stay saturated, juniper wood's reluctance to rot, and not overwatering.

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Lime sulfur banned in the U.S.

Post  jake4bonsai on Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:19 am

I finally have the correct information on the lime sulfur epidemic. There is no ban and never was. It all came from collin lewis the manufacturer and supplier of jinn and seal brand lime sulfur. Lime sulfur as of 2005 has to have a registration number to be able to buy and sell it in the united states. Well its only registered for use on shade trees, fruit trees, and roses as a fungicide and pesticide. It is not and has never been registered for use on bleaching deadwood on bonsai. It simply works great and has been used for years. It is also concidered a violation to use the product for other uses than in accordance with its labeling. Jinn and seal by collin lewis is not registered because it cannot be registered for use on bonsai and he was getting grief from the epa and this is where this all came from. There is no ban on lime sulfur anywhere in the U.S. There is only bans on use of this product that are not registered or inconsistant with its labeling. So in other words it accually illeagal to be using in the manner we do but were not going to quit. Just becareful and dont ever put yourself in a situation to be caught. If i use limesulfur on a bonsai and then i sell it there are two violations right there. One for using the product in a manner inconsistant with its labeling and also for selling the bonsai without having went through the proper registration and providing safty and awareness to the purchaser of the tree. Why i dont know but thats what donald baumgartner from the national division 5 of pesticides for the enviornmental protection agency said. I have kept the e-mail for anyone who wishes to see it or wishes to say i dont know what im talking about. Soon as i heard of this i was all over the phone calling manufactures and the epa to get a hold on this situation. Its all about more money for the government and people paying for a registration wich is the same a licence to sell there lime sulfur and the only way to have it registered is if its labeled for use as a pesticide only for fruit and shade trees, and roses. So its still avaiable and will continue to be as long as no one is caught using it for bonsai. Everyone can thank collin lewis because now the epa is onto bonsai growers using it because of his panic alert and they are now reviewing limesulfur for use on bleaching deadwood and thats not a good thing because any comments from the epa i have seen on it is that they dont think it sould be used in this manner. Just great! So what should have never been a big deal now is. Thanks alot!

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  coh on Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:23 am

That pretty much matches up with what I've heard. I posted this on another forum, but forgot to put it here as well:

Lots of conflicting "information" about this. Here in NY, a couple of local retailers (garden centers and a mail order tree/fruit nursery) have told me that Lime Sulfur was banned in NY for the past couple of years. However, the NY DEC (department of environmental conservation) still lists it as a registered product. And as others have noted, it is registered by the EPA.

I spoke with a rep at one of the companies that makes/sells Lime Sulfur, and he said they are still shipping it into NY...but only in 5 gallon containers (so mainly for larger agricultural users). He was unaware of any bans at the state or federal level. He said that one of the companies (Bonide) that used to produce smaller containers, typically carried by smaller garden centers, is no longer doing so. That could account for its disappearance in many places. Still, I don't know where the story of it being banned came from - the more I look, the less likely that seems.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for additional info from the rep, will post if I get anything.
(I'm still waiting, but I don't think we really need to hear back).

It has also been pointed out elsewhere that lime sulfur is sold in pet supply stores, and is used (heavily diluted) as a shampoo. Not quite sure I'd want my dog smelling like that, but here is a link:lime sulfur Note, I haven't seen this stuff in person, so cannot say with certainty that it is the same stuff. Does anyone know?

Interesting aside, the chemical rep I spoke with said he's received a number of inquiries from bonsai people, including one well-known re-seller of lime sulfur (who I won't name - but not Colin).

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  Rob Kempinski on Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:36 am

Thanks for the info Chris.
I can't imagine giving my dog a bath in lime sulfur!

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  JimLewis on Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:53 pm

And I can't imagine the EPA wasting its time coming after a grower of bonsai because he or she painted some deadwood with the stuff. The EPA has a LOT of much more important things to do. So I'm not sure we've heard the right story yet.

I suspect it's still legal, everywhere except perhaps in the Great and Odd State of California, but perhaps it's not cost effective for the manufactures to package it in small containers for home use?????

I'll do some more research.

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  coh on Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:10 pm

Jim Lewis wrote

...perhaps it's not cost effective for the manufactures to package it in small containers for home us????

Jim, I think this is the primary reason it's become difficult to find in many places (as I noted above, i.e. one of the companies (Bonide) that used to produce smaller containers, typically carried by smaller garden centers, is no longer doing so. That could account for its disappearance in many places.). My guess is that it wasn't a big seller at most garden centers, so they just didn't bother to look for a new supplier. I still don't know where the "banned" story originated.

As for the EPA...it wouldn't surprise me if they're looking at the off-label application, and it's quite possible that the bonsai suppliers who sell repackaged lime sulfur will have to stop. But as noted, lime sulfur will still be available...it just might take more effort to find it.

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

Post  JimLewis on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:58 pm

As for the EPA...it wouldn't surprise me if they're looking at the off-label application,

It would surprise me. I put 30 years in at a state environmental agency and have worked with many fine EPA staff over those years. They simply do not have time to watch what the few hundred(thousand?) bonsai people in the USA do with their quart and 16 ounce bottles of lime sulfur, even if they had the inclination to do it. They have their hands full with misuse and misapplication of pesticides and dumping by big agribusiness, among other chores.

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Re: ̉Lime sulfur banned in US

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