My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

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My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Poink88 on Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:27 am

I decided to start collecting today...spend 2 hours digging and came home with 4 cedar elms. I think it was a well spent 2 hours...just hope they survive.

The first 3 are smaller and took me almost exactly 20 minutes each...the large one took almost an hour because of the 4" tap root.

The pot of the 4th is very small but it is the only one I have for now...might transfer it tomorrow. I also need to shorten both main branches of the big one but not sure yet where. Any recommendations will be much appreciated. I need to do it soon before it start growing roots or leaf sprouts. I am also contemplating on removing the lowest branch now.

Here are the pics.

Sample of only remaining leaves on these trees.


A group pic of the first 3 trees, the one farthest is the 1st, the middle is 2nd, and the one in front is 3rd.


Here is a pic of the 3rd tree


And here is the 4th tree and the biggest...much bigger.





How's this?


Last edited by Poink88 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:20 pm

I decided to go ahead and cut this further and here it is now.


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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  fiona on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:49 pm

I don't know anything about this species other than the little I have picked up on a google search. Speaking in more general terms it seems to me that you have a great shape stump to work from. I would be interested to hear what those who are more familiar with the species have to say about how well it will bud from the chops you have made. If it does, you could be on to a winner.

I also read online that, although found relatively easily in the wild, this tree is rarely cultivated any more in north America owing to its Dutch Elm disease susceptibility. It is even less cultivated here in Europe but I did find that one of the few places that has specimens is 30 miles across the M8 motorway from me in Edinburgh Botanic Gardens. I sense a field trip coming on.

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  manosvince on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:54 pm

Very nice with many prospectives! What kind of substrate do you use?

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Bob Pressler on Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:51 pm

They will bud off of the old wood all over but it's important that they have at least a year to recover and grow new roots before you do any kind of styling, carving etc..

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Russell Coker on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:08 pm

Those are really nice, especially that last one.

Cedar elms are a mixed bag, with a lot of genetic variation over a vast range. Some develop quickly, others like mine, are painfully slow. The wood on mine is very hard and I've broken tools trying to cut branches.

Bob's advice is good. I'd add clean and seal your cuts, and add a layer of sphagnum to the soil surface to keep that top layer from drying out. Put a clump of moss against those surface roots you've. That fast draining soil is great, but you have to be careful too. Obviously, you don't need to be worried about leaf size for the next few years so fertilize them heavily while they are growing.

Again, that search bar comes in handy. There's not a lot about "cedar elms", but look for elm posts by Neil Dellinger. He's collected some nice ones. Narrow the search to "elms" and weed through those.

R

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:26 pm

manosvince wrote:Very nice with many prospectives! What kind of substrate do you use?
Though I have Turface MVP, I am scrimping and using 65-70% Oil-Dri on most of my newly collected trees with 30-35% potting soil. The potting soil content may be high for some but it is geared to handle Texas heat and drought.

On other trees, I also add pine bark and decomposed granite but not on these elms.

Thank you.


Last edited by Poink88 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:27 pm

Bob Pressler wrote:They will bud off of the old wood all over but it's important that they have at least a year to recover and grow new roots before you do any kind of styling, carving etc..

Will do. Thanks Bob!

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:34 pm

Russell Coker wrote:Those are really nice, especially that last one.

Cedar elms are a mixed bag, with a lot of genetic variation over a vast range. Some develop quickly, others like mine, are painfully slow. The wood on mine is very hard and I've broken tools trying to cut branches.

Bob's advice is good. I'd add clean and seal your cuts, and add a layer of sphagnum to the soil surface to keep that top layer from drying out. Put a clump of moss against those surface roots you've. That fast draining soil is great, but you have to be careful too. Obviously, you don't need to be worried about leaf size for the next few years so fertilize them heavily while they are growing.

Again, that search bar comes in handy. There's not a lot about "cedar elms", but look for elm posts by Neil Dellinger. He's collected some nice ones. Narrow the search to "elms" and weed through those.

R

Actually all the cuts are sealed though it is not obvious. I am using a home made sealer (bees wax thinned with canola oil). I am actually extending the pots up with some heavy plastic inserts so I can bury the roots deeper. Already have the plastic just never got to doing it yet Embarassed Great advise on the moss, I will try to get some today (if only for the next ones).

I will search for Neil Dellinger's post about elms. Thanks!

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Russell Coker on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:43 pm

I'll be eager to hear how your sealer works out.

Forgot to mention to soak the sphagnum for a few days before you use it. Dry sphagnum on top of dry soil and around the end of a dry surface root won't accomplish much.

P.S. I didn't take notice of this thread before because "elm" wasn't in the title. Likewise, in future searches this thread and the info shared here won't show up for that same reason. You may want to edit your title.

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  fiona on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:46 pm

Yup. Good point Russell.

Dario, to make your search easier, click HERE

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:53 pm

Thanks Russell and Fiona.

Edit is done.

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:35 pm

I also collected this from the same place (soon to be leveled for road expansion site) with permit of course. It is the biggest and nothing but a stump right now but it has the best nebari of the 5. Not too obvious in this pic but it is there. This is most likely the back BTW and the front shows a little better "movement" (yeah, wishfull thinking lol).


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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:13 pm

fiona wrote:..., although found relatively easily in the wild, this tree is rarely cultivated any more in north America owing to its Dutch Elm disease susceptibility. It is even less cultivated here in Europe but I did find that one of the few places that has specimens is 30 miles across the M8 motorway from me in Edinburgh Botanic Gardens. I sense a field trip coming on.
Fiona,

I read that a lot on most elms...thus the rise of Chinese Elm which is supposedly more resistant to dutch elm disease (DED). Your research is right, cedar elm grow like weeds here and they have the most wonderful and compact natural ramification I've seen locally. The short strip I am collecting from probably have close to a hundred of these in various sizes.

Do let us know what you think of it if and when you go to your field trip. Thank you.

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  coh on Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:54 am

Nice material...will be looking forward to its development. Have to say I'm completely unfamiliar with the species...

Chris

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Poink88 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:30 am

coh wrote:Nice material...will be looking forward to its development. Have to say I'm completely unfamiliar with the species...

Chris

Chris,

To give you an idea, here are pics of "wild" Cedar Elm. This is a juvenile and only around 9 foot tall. The ramification is almost typical to all I see here.



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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  drgonzo on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:16 am

Poink88 wrote:
manosvince wrote:Very nice with many prospectives! What kind of substrate do you use?
Though I have Turface MVP, I am scrimping and using 65-70% Oil-Dri on most of my newly collected trees with 30-35% potting soil. The potting soil content may be high for some but it is geared to handle Texas heat and drought.

On other trees, I also add pine bark and decomposed granite but not on these elms.

Thank you.

Elms, vines, and willows are the only trees I have collected that I cheat with and plant in potting soil to aid in the recovery of (sometimes) all the roots, They love it , I just add a bit of turface and perlite for drainage. Works well. I'm something of an Elm enthusiast and would love to be able to collect Cedar elms. You have some righteous stumps. All my collected elms from Rock to Americana back bud with great ebullience(!) and enjoy frequent fertilization.
-Jay

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Poink88 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:50 pm

drgonzo wrote:...I'm something of an Elm enthusiast and would love to be able to collect Cedar elms. You have some righteous stumps. All my collected elms from Rock to Americana back bud with great ebullience(!) and enjoy frequent fertilization.
-Jay
Jay,

Couple of questions for you.
1. Should I start fertilizing my stumps now? I usually just use Miracle Grow all purpose (20-20-20) is that okay for these now or use higher P content?

2. Does elm air layer well? I am thinking of air layering a few instead of chopping them down since you can usually find better potential material w/ nice branches than the tree base itself. The area I am collecting from have a construction delay and I potentially have a year or more before they bulldoze/level it.

Thank you.

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cedar elm

Post  Mitch Thomas on Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:14 pm

Poink88
I have been keeping cedar elms for about 4 yrs now I use 80% floor dry 20% Haydite mixture. I have had good success with mine. They grow like weeds and airlayer very well. The are extreemly hardy and easy to keep.
I thiunk I would hold of on amy fertilzation until spring bud out. I would also just let it grow out untill early winter then start styling it.
Here is my origional CE in this photo it had about 2years of development

Here is three layers that I took from it and made a penjing it had about 1 year of development in the photo
hope this helps.
Mitch

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  coh on Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:19 pm

My only experience is with Chinese elm, which (so far) air-layers extremely well. I have also had success rooting fairly thick cuttings. Don't know if this translates to all elms.

As for oil-dry...maybe those of you in the south are OK, but I wouldn't trust it as a major component up north. I bought a package for testing this fall, and while it looks/acts superficially like turface (especially in terms of water holding capacity), it became soft and started to break down pretty quickly after being soaked. And this breakdown accelerated when it went through a couple of freeze-thaw cycles.

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Poink88 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:39 pm

Thanks Mitch!

coh wrote:My only experience is with Chinese elm, which (so far) air-layers extremely well. I have also had success rooting fairly thick cuttings. Don't know if this translates to all elms.

As for oil-dry...maybe those of you in the south are OK, but I wouldn't trust it as a major component up north. I bought a package for testing this fall, and while it looks/acts superficially like turface (especially in terms of water holding capacity), it became soft and started to break down pretty quickly after being soaked. And this breakdown accelerated when it went through a couple of freeze-thaw cycles.

Chris, I read a lot of this and is the main reason I purchased some Turface MVP. Granted that I am only doing this for 3 months but Oil-Dri never failed me yet, no breakdown whatsoever that I can observe. I am thinking the freeze thaw cycle is the main culprit, thankfully it hardly freezes here in TX. I also plan to use it only on plants in training containers and switch to Turface when they go to their bonsai pot. Main reason for me using it is availability. Maybe when I go back to the Turface vendor, I should stock up esp since his price is very reasonable ($13.95/50# bag).

Seems like air-layering is worth pursuing. Thanks guys!

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  drgonzo on Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:44 pm

Poink88 wrote:

Couple of questions for you.
1. Should I start fertilizing my stumps now? I usually just use Miracle Grow all purpose (20-20-20) is that okay for these now or use higher P content?

2. Does elm air layer well? I am thinking of air layering a few instead of chopping them down since you can usually find better potential material w/ nice branches than the tree base itself. The area I am collecting from have a construction delay and I potentially have a year or more before they bulldoze/level it.

Thank you.

With LARGE material that has so recently been collected I would wait a good month after bud break before I gave 1/2 strength fertilizer.
As you notice the tree respond to the fertilizer bump up to a heavier feeding regime. Elm will also root out from the stumps vigorously keep them evenly moist.

Air layers with ease, the entire Genus (for the most part) is very easy to work with.
-Jay

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Rob Kempinski on Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:54 pm

[quote="Poink88"]Thanks Mitch!

coh wrote:My only experience is with Chinese elm, which (so far) air-layers extremely well. I have also had success rooting fairly thick cuttings. Don't know if this translates to all elms.

Seems like air-layering is worth pursuing. Thanks guys!

Air layering is definitely a viable option as is ground layering if the trunk down low is nice.

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  bucknbonsai on Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:24 pm

NAPA autoparts brand oildry seems to hold up to freezing/thawing better.

In terms of groundlayer/airlayering, ive had mixed luck. I have been girdling the trunk about 4 inches off the ground then take a big nursery can and cut it up to form a 6inch deep ring about 15inches in diameter. I then fill this with potting soil. Sometimes i try to put moss against the wound and then fill the rest with soil. Does anyone else do it this way, or just use moss wrapped with bag, right at ground level?

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

Post  Bob Pressler on Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:17 pm

Poink88 wrote:
drgonzo wrote:...I'm something of an Elm enthusiast and would love to be able to collect Cedar elms. You have some righteous stumps. All my collected elms from Rock to Americana back bud with great ebullience(!) and enjoy frequent fertilization.
-Jay
Jay,

Couple of questions for you.
1. Should I start fertilizing my stumps now? I usually just use Miracle Grow all purpose (20-20-20) is that okay for these now or use higher P content?

2. Does elm air layer well? I am thinking of air layering a few instead of chopping them down since you can usually find better potential material w/ nice branches than the tree base itself. The area I am collecting from have a construction delay and I potentially have a year or more before they bulldoze/level it.

Thank you.
I personally would wait until I saw new buds with Miracle Grow. If organic now is good cause it'll help with new roots. The MG will probably be washed out before it gets used now.
Every elm I've tried to a/l including nursery grown cedar elms have taken in one season- I start them in March and separate at the end of Sept..

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Re: My urban yamadori (Cedar Elm)

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