some pre bonsai shohin

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some pre bonsai shohin

Post  adam1234 on Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:13 am

Hi,

Since I am new I thought I'd post some pictures of some pre bonsai I am attempting shohin from. I would appreciate advice. If I am doing anything wrong and what I could do to improve them.
Sorbus spp.

Ash (Fraxinus excelsior)

Hazel (I think maybe Corylus avellana)

Hornbeam (Carpinus betulus)

Japanese maple

This last one is not a shohin and is an Acer palmatum 'Bloodgood' which I got last year from a nursery




Many thanks.

adam1234
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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  drgonzo on Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:18 am

the Ash and Hazels will have difficulty reducing leaves for you, so think big in your planning with them. The Hornbeam is excellent starting material! Is the Blood good grafted? looks like a whip and tongue graft...cool-
-Jay

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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  fiona on Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:16 am

drgonzo wrote:the Ash and Hazels will have difficulty reducing leaves for you, so think big in your planning with them. The Hornbeam is excellent starting material!
I suspect Attwass's climate is fairly similar to my own so he may have a better result certainly with his hazel and quite possibly with the ash than you'd expect. Until last winter took it, I'd had a success with a Shohin Corylus avellana "Contorta", and I have an ash coming through that showed signs last year of reduction as well (2-year old whippy growth so a bit early to tell if it is a full success). My own trees have been kept in a small training pot and I suspect that this, combined with the climate, is what has helped the leaf reduction. It might also of course make for a slower overall growing process, but hey... this is bonsai. Plus I was, like Attwass, aiming for Shohin size rather than a massively trunked larger tree.


Last edited by fiona on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  adam1234 on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:09 am

drgonzo wrote:the Ash and Hazels will have difficulty reducing leaves for you, so think big in your planning with them. The Hornbeam is excellent starting material! Is the Blood good grafted? looks like a whip and tongue graft...cool-
-Jay

Thank you Jay for your input. The Ash is quite easy to reduce the leaf size. I have found out that after the initial spring flush of growth if I reduce the number of leaflets on a leaf to 2, I get massive leaf reduction and together with some new budding. I have followed this process for 2 years now on a small tree and have noticed that the subsequent year the leaf size reduces naturally, I guess because of the increased ramification. The only problem is that this is a slow process of developement due to the reduction in energy production sites on the leaf. However, saying all of this I have this ash I am trying to bonsai and it failed to leaf out in spring. Late summer/autumn it started to move and I have it in a little greenhouse with a fleece covering. I think because of the bad winter and the cutting of the leaflets the tree was not happy and so delayed leafing out.

The ash with the Hazels as fiona has mentioned the problem is more of the whippy growth than leaf size. I imagine with increased ramification leaf size should go down. I have had branches just dying on me though on these hazels.

The Acer palmatum 'Bloodgood' is grafted.

Thanks for your input.

adam1234
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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:27 am

You will need to find a way to cover the abrupt transition from the fat base to the smaller branches.

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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  adam1234 on Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:30 am

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:You will need to find a way to cover the abrupt transition from the fat base to the smaller branches.

Hi Billy,
of which tree, the Acer?

adam1234
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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  JimLewis on Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:48 pm

Those all look like fun. I've never done the first few so can't comment on how they grow, but on the Sorbus, I would suggest you bring that second "trunk" up closer to the tree, narrowing that "V" shape.

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Some Pre Bonsai Shohin

Post  bonsaisr on Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:05 pm

Not that my sticks are any better, but the first few are missing any nebari. You need to have something there to make them more convincing.
Iris

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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:13 pm

Well, the Ash and the Hornbeam for sure.

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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  adam1234 on Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:50 pm

bonsaisr wrote:Not that my sticks are any better, but the first few are missing any nebari. You need to have something there to make them more convincing.
Iris


Iris,
I am new (only started 2 years ago and had no one to ask until now) to all of this, I would hate to have something I am trying that would not ammount to anything so Iris does that mean that the first few that are burried (and the roots are not that great underneath) are useless for bonsai? I would rather be told so that I do not waste time on them.

In your opinion do you think I should continue with them or find other material. I would really appreciate advice as I have no one to ask for input. I have gone through the forum and believe that all contributors here are very experienced and I would value their input mostly of what is wrong with the trees and if they are poor material that should be thrown away.

Thank you

adam1234
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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  drgonzo on Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:16 am

attwass wrote:
bonsaisr wrote:Not that my sticks are any better, but the first few are missing any nebari. You need to have something there to make them more convincing.
Iris




In your opinion do you think I should continue with them or find other material. I would really appreciate advice as I have no one to ask for input. I have gone through the forum and believe that all contributors here are very experienced and I would value their input mostly of what is wrong with the trees and if they are poor material that should be thrown away.

Thank you

I have said it so many times, 'good material is hard to find,' I've become VERY picky as I have progressed in the hobby, mostly because when we begin with these trees its nearly a lifetime commitment, I don't like to waste time on inferior material that I could be devoting to better stock. So all the junk I thought was good a few years ago has all now become landscape plantings (and very pretty I might add) and now all I see is roots, and trunks...roots and trunks... when I go scouting for material.

My wife has said to me "you went from sticks in pots to stumps in boxes"..... I think thats a complement.
-Jay

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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  Guest on Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:02 am

Attwass,

These are nice materials. What's good with these small sizes is that it can be formed easily to have a proportion branches and trunk.

IMHO, I see no problem with the nebari too.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  Guest on Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:05 am

Difficult to tell from the pictures, but most seems to big too be shohin? Select species for shohin with small leaves, or specimens you are sure can get the leaf size very small (Cotoneaster, Azalea, Japanese maple species, Yew e.g.).

Cutting back like you do is the right way to go with this type of material, but below the ideal height, so development of a branch structure is possible in shohin size.

- Morten

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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  adam1234 on Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:12 pm

Hi,

Thanks to everyone who commented.

So, I get that the Ash and Hazels will create difficulty in leaf reduction (Comment from Jay and Morten's advice to stick with small leaf varieties).
Since the sorbus has large leaves too I will stay away from her.
The stumps would have to have good surface roots from the beginning (Advice from Iris).
I will try and be as picky as possible (Advice from Jay).

Once I find suitable stock I will cut back below the ideal height so that development of branch structure is possible (advice from morten).
From all the sticks I will keep the Acer palmatum and the Hornbeam and grow them as medium size bonsai and not shohin (or am I wasting my time there?).

Is there a book that talks about developing shohin in detail especially how to choose raw material?

The last question is shohin is 20cm from the rim of the pot to the top of the tree, isn't it? But are there any restrictions on pot depth? and tree width?
Thanks to everyone for the useful advice.

adam1234
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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

Post  Rui Marques on Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:14 am

Hi,

Morten Albek has a nice book that you can check out here:

http://shohinblog.com/shohin-book/

Best regards.

Rui

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Re: some pre bonsai shohin

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