Kurume Hard Prune....HELP! (UPDATE SPRING 2012.. with photo)

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Re: Kurume Hard Prune....HELP! (UPDATE SPRING 2012.. with photo)

Post  drgonzo on Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:15 pm

I've been looking at a few Kurume pictures and mine looks very similar (leaf and bark wise) to "Tradition". Which also has little pink flowers as Bill mentioned to me.

We'll know in spring for sure.
-Jay

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Re: Kurume Hard Prune....HELP! (UPDATE SPRING 2012.. with photo)

Post  Russell Coker on Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:36 am

Could be. Azaleas are such a mixed up bunch it's really hard to say. Kurumes aren't very popular down here anymore so few are being produced by the growers I know. There are just better azaleas for our climate.

But I will say that it doesn't look like the kurumes I'm familiar with like 'hino crimson', 'snow' and 'coral bell'. None of these elongate like your plant, which leads me to believe your plant is in a more modern group (like harris or glen dale) and not "kurume" in the traditional sense of the word.

Hope that helps clarify...

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Re: Kurume Hard Prune....HELP! (UPDATE SPRING 2012.. with photo)

Post  drgonzo on Mon May 07, 2012 9:08 pm

Helo everyone,

As promised here is a nice photo of this Azalea purchased from Bill Valavanis last fall finally in bloom. It's been a long wait to actually see what I got, but well worth it, as it's a lovely pink on cream blossom. i do agree with Russell that we are looking at one of the more modern azalea cultivars here and not actually "kurume." Still it's lovely and makes me want a strawberry creamsicle.
-Jay

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Re: Kurume Hard Prune....HELP! (UPDATE SPRING 2012.. with photo)

Post  coh on Mon May 07, 2012 10:47 pm

Beautiful flower! Have you decided when and how much you're going to cut back?

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Re: Kurume Hard Prune....HELP! (UPDATE SPRING 2012.. with photo)

Post  Russell Coker on Mon May 07, 2012 11:08 pm



Even before I saw the bloom my first thought was 'conversation piece', a Robin Hill hybrid. Check out http://www.ag.auburn.edu/hort/landscape/RobinHillpage.html#ConversationPiece

Is this the only flower so far, and do they all look the same? 'Conversation piece' is like multicolored satsuki, there is potential for tremendous variation on a single plant, or it can look like this or be solid dark pink. Depends on where the cutting was taken.

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Re: Kurume Hard Prune....HELP! (UPDATE SPRING 2012.. with photo)

Post  Glaucus on Tue May 08, 2012 12:04 am

Could be. I have 'Hilda Niblett' myself, a Robin Hill similar to this one though parentage is different. Seems this flower is smaller than 'Hilda Niblett'. But 'Conversation Piece' also has this satsuki-type fukurin flower.
Leaf shape does look what one could expect as well.
http://donaldhyatt.com/RobinHills/details/ConversationPiece.html
http://www.pbase.com/azaleasociety/conversationpiece

I have a kurume that has a fukurin pattern called 'Kermesina Rose'. It is about to bloom. It is a fukurin sport of the normal pink 'Kermesina' azalea. The pattern is basically identical to your flower, but it has typical round R.indicum shaped petals while many kurume have different flower shapes.

As for kurume pruning, in my limited experience with mature plants, cutting back into old wood results in dieback while cutting back with no leaves into last years wood buds back fine. This is a problem with the longer internode stronger growing kaempferi influenced hybrids. They get really long branches and they don't bud back. These are often the hybrids people try to use as garden yamadori because more kiusianum kurume usually grow too multibranched.

I asked a Japanese grower once if satsuki are better for bonsai. Now my Japanese isn't very good but I think he didn't say yes. He said it depends on the cultivar and that kiusianum azalea have better bark. I have seen pictures of kurume bonsai from Japan.
And then there is also the kiusianum x satsuki hybrids like 'Kakuo' and others. I aqcuired a 'Kakuo' myself recently and it is in bloom now. You can't tell it has satsuki blood. Flowers and leaves are identical to kiusianum forms.

Satsuki bonsai hobbyists are traditionally satsuki hobbyists because of the flowers. They only became bonsai later. They loved the large sporting flowers of the satsuki. It may still be that kiusianum are harder to style because of a bit less backbudding, though many seem to backbud naturally when young.


Kurume heritage is as complex as satsuki hybrid heritage. They are all a little different. I would say for bonsai kiusianum genes are good and kaempferi genes are bad. Those are the two rhododendron species that long long ago formed the hybrid progenitors for the kurume. Kurume are mainly landscape plants. So they bloom many many small flowers that form a completely bright coloured scrub in spring. The shape of the individual flower is not important. Sports are generally undesirable.


Satoshi Yamaguchi is a Japanese expert on kurume and he made this site:
http://web.agr.ehime-u.ac.jp/~dr.yamaguchi/virtualazalea.htm

First line on his page says he developed a cultivar he thinks is 'best for bonsai'. I think this site is quite old and not updated recently but I don't think the satsuki people liked his kurume for bonsai as I don't know about it.

To me it always seems a bit strange to have this strong split between satsuki and tsutsuji (kurume and others). I can't really figure it out. To western azalea people evergreen azalea are evergreen azalea. And the satsuki azalea dictionary has some kiusianum hybrids like 'Miyama Mangetsu'. While they realize it is a kiusianum-type plant, they think it has indicum blood for some reason, it seems. Maybe because they like it so much for bonsai. I know this azalea is available in the west in some places. I think everyone just feels it is a form of R.kiusianum or otherwise a kurume.
Similar is 'Gyokurei' which is clearly and accepted as a belgian indica type azalea. They don't know the exact parentage. But for some reason they decided to include this one in their satsuki dictionary. Does it has satsuki blood? No one knows. I guess the flower shape tells them it does. Is it any good for traditional bonsai? Probably inferior like all other belgian indica. Fine for a big meika of course.
I tried to answer when an azalea in Japan qualifies as a satsuki. The answer I got was when you register a new cultivar with the satsuki society they evaluate it. How? Don't know.


Oh Japanese term is jikukiri. 軸切り

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Re: Kurume Hard Prune....HELP! (UPDATE SPRING 2012.. with photo)

Post  drgonzo on Tue May 08, 2012 1:38 am

Russell

VERY VERY close to 'conversation piece' I totally agree, close enough for my needs anyway.

I think this was cut back too late last season as I seem to only have about 4 flowers, one is a double, as in two flowers/buds from the same branch. All look identical so far. Several buds are still totally closed, it will be fun to watch and look for variations as they open.

Chris, I need to do a repot with it and change the potting angle I wouldn't cut back too hard as i'm finding a tree shape in it that I like and only needs a bit of wire and directional change. My main thing was to learn to keep an azalea happy and thriving, so far so good. If i do good with this guy I may allow myself a couple others without too much fear of killing them.

I'm grateful for all the help with the ID's guys, as Azalea are not my specialty and they sure are a planet all their own!

-Jay

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Re: Kurume Hard Prune....HELP! (UPDATE SPRING 2012.. with photo)

Post  sunip on Tue May 08, 2012 7:59 am

Glaucus wrote:
And then there is also the kiusianum x satsuki hybrids like 'Kakuo' and others. I aqcuired a 'Kakuo' myself recently and it is in bloom now. You can't tell it has satsuki blood. Flowers and leaves are identical to kiusianum forms.
Hello Glaucus,
Can you give us a picture of your Kakuo flower?
Sunip Wink

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Re: Kurume Hard Prune....HELP! (UPDATE SPRING 2012.. with photo)

Post  Glaucus on Tue May 08, 2012 10:52 am

http://azaleasplendor.dyndns.info/azalea/plants/kakuo.php


Mine appear paler than those I have seen in other pictures. Don't know if that is them using certain colour settings to bring out more colour. Might be climate or might be sporting, though they don't seem to really sport much.

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Re: Kurume Hard Prune....HELP! (UPDATE SPRING 2012.. with photo)

Post  sunip on Tue May 08, 2012 11:58 am

Glaucus wrote:http://azaleasplendor.dyndns.info/azalea/plants/kakuo.php
Mine appear paler than those I have seen in other pictures. Don't know if that is them using certain colour settings to bring out more colour. Might be climate or might be sporting, though they don't seem to really sport much.
Hello Glaucus,
Thanks.
The different pictures give a good impression of the flowering range.
My satsuki flower buds did not opened themselves yet.
Sunip Wink

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