japanese verbage

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japanese verbage

Post  dick benbow on Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:35 pm

Recently a post was made referring to three japanese words. It reminded me that for many there may be a need to have someplace one could go to get a definiition of what they mean. If you type them into the search engine here you get nothing back. I think it may be a nice service to provide such a translation or post a connection to maybe babblefish, tho I'm not sure if they would have that service revolving around a language for hobby specific? Worthwhile?

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  fiona on Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:57 pm

Hi Dick.

Well now, here's a funny thing... Very Happy We are already having this discussion over on the Moderators' forum as I too was a bit confused over some recent terminology - not helped by the incorrect spelling that had occurred with one of the words and took a bit of googling to work out.

We will be making some sort of facility available really soon - just trying to decide if a link to an existing glossary is possible or if we have to start it from scratch. The feature will be a glossary of the common (and some of the less common) Japanese terms. But one issue we know we will encounter is that some terms don't "translate" easily, especially when they relate to a concept rather than a specific feature as indeed a recent thread (linked HERE ) started by Bill Valavanis showed. We'll do our best though.


Edit: I do apologise to Karl Thier as it was he who started the thread I referenced rather that Bill.


Last edited by fiona on Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  marcus watts on Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:11 pm

hi,
Personally i think as this is predominantly an english speaking forum anyone wishing to type japanese words into their posts should have the thought to then translate them for the readers (as some do already), rather than offering links so the reader can try and sort it out themselves........typing either in japanese characters, (or the english spelling of the same) is about as much use on this forum as typing in arabic, russian, chinese or any other language (even though I know there are members who could understand those languages Smile ).

if an individual knows the translation of the words they wish to use they should include it, if they dont know or cant explain it clearly it would be better to choose another wording

just my opinion though -

Marcus


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Japanese Verbiage

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:25 pm

Do you have to understand Italian to discuss music?
Do you have to understand German to discuss war?
I do admit you need a smattering of Latin to discuss botany.
Understanding Japanese terms is less important for discussing bonsai than it used to be. There are perfectly good English (or other equivalent) terms. Some of the old terms, like wabi & sabi, have just flown away. However, as in many arts, there are a few Japanese terms for which the English equivalent is less precise, like nebari.
Iris

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  JimLewis on Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:32 pm

if an individual knows the translation of the words they wish to use they should include it, if they dont know or cant explain it clearly it would be better to choose another wording

I tend to agree -- particularly in those cases where the Japanese terms are used gratuitously. It is a "Rule" in good journalism that all jargon is to either be eschewed, or explained. That said, we had a fairly good glossary on the old site. It may show up here again. Strangely, the encyclopaedic Phoenix Bonsai site doesn't have a glossary.

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  Guest on Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:25 pm

It is far better to use an English word for a Japanese word. The Japanese word doesn't mean anything else than the English word does, and we who do not understand Japanese are far better going with the translated word. Some words, like nebari (surface roots) are used very often and understood by some experienced girls and guys, but everyone will understand surface roots and I do think that is exactly as precise as the Japanese term. So lets do that.
( Wabi sabi is a different thing. It is a description of a special approach and understand that is not solely covered by the words age and patina. So here you have to read deeper to know what it is about - if you want to).
. Very Happy

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  fiona on Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:58 pm

morten albek wrote: Wabi sabi is a different thing. It is a description of a special approach and understand that is not solely covered by the words age and patina. So here you have to read deeper to know what it is about - if you want to.
This was kind of the case with the thread I mentioned earlier - a "concept" rather than a term.

The immediate jargon confusion came about precisely because the poster used terms that quite possibly only those who have undertaken some training actually in Japan might understand. I do love the challenge of a good terminology google but some of the other responses indicated a degree of irritation.

Our choice is either to put on a post asking for posters either to avoid or explain terms not in English or to put up a glossary. We're happy to be guided by the consensus on this one. My only concern is that people would not read any sticky post we put on re use of technical terms.

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  dick benbow on Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:43 pm

Either way, whether we have a glossery of terms or simply request a translation when posting works for me.
So pleased to hear the moderators had already come to grips on this one. Smile thanks

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  drgonzo on Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:33 pm

bonsaisr wrote:
Do you have to understand German to discuss war?

Iris has a singular wit that often makes me laugh.
-Jay

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  marcus watts on Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:11 am

drgonzo wrote:
bonsaisr wrote:
Do you have to understand German to discuss war?

Iris has a singular wit that often makes me laugh.
-Jay

made me chuckle too - but why pick german?? you guys were fighting each other on home soil long before the germans embarked on their big one. i would be drawn to "do you need to understand religion to discuss war?", i think that would cover a suitably large slice of history then.

very interesting responses too,

Marcus




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Re: japanese verbage

Post  Guest on Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:26 pm

Again I want to play as the devils advocate, if the Japanese term got an equivalent English word , What's the need for using the Japanese word. Specially if the words used were not usually found to be being used here like the other more familiar words/terms like shari, jins, sushi or wasabi, drunken etc. If there is no direct translation into english, at least have the courtesy to explain it.
Sometimes, it seems that the frequent used of these unfamiliar terms are just forms of "showing off" rather than discussing ideas, that the posters knows Japanese words better than others, and were supposed to add more credibility to them/her/him in the matters being discussed...and is very annoying and irritating. Personally I won't even bother to look at the glossary/dictionary when things like these happened here.


regards,
jun Razz

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  John Quinn on Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:28 pm

I agree with Marcus' comments, above. Or should I say 'Vide supra'. Cool

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  fiona on Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:43 pm

Omnia mihi lingua graeca sunt.

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  Hans van Meer. on Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:35 pm

Sounds like to me! Very Happy
Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  Guest on Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:33 pm

morten albek wrote:It is far better to use an English word for a Japanese word. The Japanese word doesn't mean anything else than the English word does, and we who do not understand Japanese are far better going with the translated word. Some words, like nebari (surface roots) are used very often and understood by some experienced girls and guys, but everyone will understand surface roots and I do think that is exactly as precise as the Japanese term. So lets do that.
( Wabi sabi is a different thing. It is a description of a special approach and understand that is not solely covered by the words age and patina. So here you have to read deeper to know what it is about - if you want to).
. Very Happy

In the early days of my bonsai-interest, did I learn, the nebari is the trunk just above the surfaceroots. Much later, I learned, that nebari is only found on japanese acers.
Is this all wrong, or is Mortens suggestion really that easy?.

Kind regards Yvonne


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Re: japanese verbage

Post  rock on Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:48 am

I like and use all these, they are not that hard to learn. Not a big deal, use or dont use, wax on wax off
alien

http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_JapaneseTerms.html

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Japanese Verbage

Post  The Lad on Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:56 am

rock wrote:I like and use all these, they are not that hard to learn. Not a big deal, use or dont use, wax on wax off
alien

http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics_JapaneseTerms.html

That's ok Rock and a great place to learn the Words and the meaning BUT only one would worry me when explaining and would be

FUKINAGASHI Windswept Form

With MY SCOTTISH ACCENT I guess there would be a few raised eye-brows when I tried to say that as i am sure many people would think i was saying something Rude

Take care

Jim thelad Look after each other and all your Bonsai Trees

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  Hans van Meer. on Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:07 pm

"FUKINAGASHI"
I can imagine people thinking that this is a bit rude to say! Now I have to admit that he was a bit strange when he still had his "fake" long hair and his funny walk, but never the less, he still was one of the greatest tennis player to walk this earth! So give him some respect!! Very Happy
Cheers,
Hans van Meer.


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Re: japanese verbage

Post  fiona on Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:15 pm

Although there is a considerable element of flogging a dead horse now in this thread I can't help adding something that came to me during a sleepless night. It is simply this: we have long (and often completely unproductive) debates on here about whether Bonsai should always follow the Japanese "rules" or whether we should build our own identities into it. It seems to me that by insisting on using Japanese terms we are furthering the case for saying Bonsai is, and can only ever be, a Japanese art form.

For example, we pretty much all agree that Walter Pall has developed a distinctive style that gets called Naturalistic. Is there a Japanese term for this? If there is, is it necessary or relevant for us to use it since this is not a style developed in Japan? What Japanese term would cover Nick Lenz's unique style? Or are we going to be snooty and say that neither of those are Bonsai?

But to return to the original point of this thread, my feeling is to solve the issue of unfamiliar terminology, we provide a link to an existing good glossary site but also ask posters kindly to explain any terms that are not in common use.



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Re: japanese verbage

Post  JimLewis on Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:37 pm

But to return to the original point of this thread, my feeling is to solve the issue of unfamiliar terminology, we provide a link to an existing good glossary site but also ask posters kindly to explain any terms that are not in common use.

The Bonsai4Me glossary is useful. The old IBC Glossary has many more terms (some quite esoteric -- and useless). It is reproduced below for those who might want to ruin their brains by learning all the words.

Japanese Bonsai Terms

The following are mostly japanese words used in bonsai. We are always looking to add to our collection. Do not hesitate to suggest/add a word to our dictionary. Thank you.

Please let us know if any of the definitions are erroneous.
We currently have the following definitions in our dictionary:

A
Ara-kawacho
Tree with rough bark
Ara-ki
"Freshly dug tree, freshly dug tree suitable as bonsai material."


Bankan
Trunk with many curves - 'coiled snakes'
Bonkei
"Natural landscapes natural landscapes in a dish (rocks, plants, animal figures, houses)"
Bunjingi
Literati trunk or trunks growing upright or at a slight incline with no branches except at the top.

Chokkan
"Upright, Formal, Strong vertical trunk, pyramidal arrangement of branches in all directions."

Daiki
"Parent plant, stock (Tsugi-ho scion)"

Eda-jin
Artificially bleached branches
Eda-nuki
Removal of unwanted branches
Eda-uchi
Harmonizing effect of branches
Eda-zashi
Branch pruning

Fukinagashi
"Windswept style Trunk at an angle with branches and twigs growing only in one direction - as if lashed by the wind. Container: oval, rectangular"

Gobo-ne
Tap root
Gobo-tsuchi
Coarse-grained soil

Ha-gari
Pinching out leaves
Ha-zashi
Leaf pruning
Hamizu
Misting Spraying leaves with water.
Han-Kengai
Semi-Cascade Horizontal growth.
Hankan
Bonsai with a very coiled trunk
Hariganekake
Wiring a tree.
Hokidachi
Broom style Fan shaped branches on an upright trunk.
Honbachi
Bonsai dish

Ikada
Raft style Trunk buried horizontally in ground with limbs growing as individual trees.
Ishitsuki
Clinging to rock Miniature tree growing above or on a rock with roots clasping the stone and reaching down into the soil.

Ju-sei
Growth of the tree
Ju-shin
Top of the tree

Kabudachi
Clump Multiple trunks growing from one root.
Kabuwake
Separation of the root.
Kanju
Deciduous trees (hardwoods).
Kannuki-eda
An ugly branch that must be cut off.
Kansui
Watering
Karikomi
Pruning of leaves and branches.
Kengai
Cascade Trunk and branches hang below rim of pot.
Kesho-tuschi
"Decorative soil, silver sand."
Keto-tsuchi
Peat
Ko-eda
Very graceful limbs.
Kokejun
Trunk that tapers towards the top.
Komochi
Bonsai with twin trunk.
Kuro-tsuchi
Black loam.
Kuruma-eda
Ugly branch that must be cut off.




Mame-bonsai
Bonsai less than 10 cm tall
Me-tsumi
Nipping out leaves.
Meiboku
"Old, antique bonsai."
Mi-momo
Fruit bearing bonsai.
Misho
Raising bonsai from seed.
Misho-momo
Bonsai from seed.
Mizu-gire
Too dry.
Mizu-goke
Sphagnum moss.
Moyogi
"Upright, Informal Curved."


Ne-zashi
Root pruning.
Neagari
Bonsai with exposed roots.
Nebari
Form of the visible roots.
Nejikan
Bonsai with twisted trunk.
Netsuranari
Raft from root (sinuous style) Several trunks growing from a root lying horizontally producing the effect of a group of trees.

Oki-goe
Fertilizer in pellet or powder form.
Oyaki
Parent tree Parent tree with reference to air-layering grafting technique.
P


Roboku
"Old, antique bonsai."

Sabamiki
Bonsai with split trunk.
Saikei
Landscapes with rocks and trees but no figures.
Sankan
"Triple trunk Three trunks growing from one root (father, mother, son)."
Sashi-ho
Cutting.
Sashi-ki
Propagation by means of cuttings.
Seishi
Bonsai training.
Sentei
Tree planting.
Shakan
Slanting
Sharimiki
Driftwood style.
Shohaku
Coniferous trees (Softwoods).
Shohin-bonsai
Bonsai no more than 15cm tall.
Shoki
Bonsai from collected specimens Yamadori-shitate (opposite of Misho).
Sokan
"Twin trunk Two trunks growing from one root (father,son)."
Sui-ban
Water basin. Used for displaying suiseki.
Suiban
Shallow dish without a drainage hole.
Suiseki
Rocky landscape Rocky landscape arranged on Suiban (shallow dish). org.: San Sui-Sek (Chinese)-stones used for landscape.

Tachia-gari
Trunk region.
Tangei
Bonsai material.
Tekishin
Removal of shoots.
Tocho-shi
Branch that has grown too long.
Toriki
"A technique of air-layering bonsai, A technique of obtaining bonsai by air-layering."
Toriki-momo
Bonsai obtained through air-layering.
Tsugi-ho
Scion (Daiki-parent plant)
Tsugi-ki
The technique of grafting bonsai. The technique of obtaining bonsai by grafting



X

Yose-ue
"Group planting Several trees planted in flat dish to give appearance of a forest. Planted in odd numbers. Container: rectangular, oval (very low)."


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Re: japanese verbage

Post  fiona on Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:31 pm

Splendid. But I can see some "discussions" ensuing from that list. Laughing

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  JimLewis on Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:23 pm

Let's see how long this discussion lasts. <g>

But seriously, as I said at the top, if there are errors, we'll fix them. I suppose we could even (shudder) add terms.

I don't know who the originator of this list was, way back when. I know it existed in 1992-93 or thereabouts when or very shortly after the IBC was born.

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Re: japanese verbage

Post  rock on Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:48 am

The Lad wrote:


With MY SCOTTISH ACCENT I guess there would be a few raised eye-brows when I tried to say that as i am sure many people would think i was saying something Rude

]
Ha ha, yes ...how about this one?
Ishitsuki


Very Happy

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Japanese Verbage

Post  The Lad on Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:32 pm

rock wrote:
The Lad wrote:


With MY SCOTTISH ACCENT I guess there would be a few raised eye-brows when I tried to say that as i am sure many people would think i was saying something Rude

]
Ha ha, yes ...how about this one?
Ishitsuki


Very Happy

Hi Rock nice one

I will hold BOTH HANDS cheers UP not for Cheers as there is NO Hope In H--L would I ever attempt say that one and there a few more I am staying clear from saying

Take Care and look after All your Bonsai Trees and Each Other

Jim TheLad



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Re: japanese verbage

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