Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  graham walker on Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:44 pm

Jim,
You could say the same about Bonsai Judges. What makes a Bonsai Artist/ practitioner a Judge?
They do not have to go on a course or take a qualifying test/ exam that I know of. Most Judges are asked to judge trees because of their experience. Does this make a good Judge?

Maybe it is time that the Bonsai Fraternity had to take a course and pass an exam, before they qualified to be a Judge.

In my other hobby of Cacti and Succulents, to be a Judge we have to attend courses (at our own expense) and take a test consisting of 10 cactus classes and 10 succulent classes and have to pass the tests before we attain the qualification, which is internationally recognised

Just another thought to your Bonsai Master ideas

Graham

graham walker
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  Alain Bertrand on Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:20 pm

The Lad wrote:
If your wife's calligraphy Society's have ranking would it be fair to say there's no reason why a Ranking Sytem cannot be implemented in the World of Bonsai

I think just you got part of the information needed to compare bonsai and calligraphy. Another part, is that to my knowledge, ranks in calligraphy are organization based, that is if you get your ranks within one organization and change to another, you somehow loose your rank. I personally know an authorized professor of calligraphy that got all her ranks in a Kansai based organization, move to the Kanto area to follow her husband and lost her ranks. She now can only teach kids. Moreover, as calligraphy is vastly more popular than bonsai, locally based organizations still make sense. That wouldn't be the case for bonsai in most places, even in Japan (for example, I often go to Wakayama pref, and since the last specialized shop closed a few years ago, there is no more (professional) "master" in this prefecture. Last, but not least, calligraphy has very strictly enforced criteria, several hundreds years old, and until you become a recognized master, you just don't create "new" things. This is not the case in bonsai.

Alain Bertrand
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  marcus watts on Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:03 am

imo There isnt a bonsai master anywhere outside Japan, and unless one moves (unlikely) there probably never will be. The mature and highly skilled japanese individuals will, for the most part, have worked 10s of 1000's of long hours on bonsai, lived, ate and breathed bonsai, even inherited the family bonsai business & inherited the responsability of becoming gaurdian to trees with great history. An individual who is humble enough to continue their great works without plastering themselves all over utube, without standing on every stage demoing at every convention etc is the true master.....This will never be achieved by the current crop of bonsai circuit stylists, where the most important thing is the appearance fee, once money takes over the importance of the tree becomes second. Even worse are the corner cutting stylists that are churning out trees with good artistry but very poor tecniques just to create a wow looking photo image to use as adverts for themselves - we see lots of that these days, and it is bad for the future quality of homegrown bonsai.

Tony touched on a very important bit, but i think the detail of what he said was missed in the posts following - he literally took the words out of my mouth that you must look at an individuals personal trees - he importantly said though...........trees they have owned for some time.........suddenly it went into talking about money, and that money can buy specimen trees so the individual would look good anyway. Not so.............because the key point wasnt the trees, but how long the keeper had owned them, keeping them healthy, thriving and improving shows the true skill.
Any fool can buy a few specimen trees and let them decline through lack of knowledge and ability. I have seen more than a few dead or dying, very expensive trees in the premices of a japanese 'trained' freelance bonsai expert. I've seen even more trees tucked at the back with severe die back from huge styling sessions that should have taked 3 years rather than 3 hours.

Maybe in the west we will one day spawn a master - but it will be a mature and understated individual of great skill - not someone who has been pounding the pavements trying to make a name for themselves - how on earth can you maintain and understand your own trees if you are not at home with them for many weeks or months ?????

The closest candidate for me atm would be Walter Pall, (not that i know or have ever met him). But i see some beautiful trees that improve with each picture you see.

good topic, cheers Marcus

marcus watts
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  Guest on Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:05 am

I agree Marcus.

Though I believe no masters (if the word is understood as it should be), are present today in the west. And why is it important to put a label on someone, making them something special? It is all about the trees isn´t it? Very Happy

Regards
Morten

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  Rob Kempinski on Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:55 pm

marcus watts wrote:imo There isnt a bonsai master anywhere outside Japan, and unless one moves (unlikely) there probably never will be.

What about China? They have been doing bonsai since the neolithic era.
And I'm sure there are many other masters of bonsai outside of Japan.

Rob Kempinski
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  landerloos on Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:34 pm

Rob Kempinski wrote:
marcus watts wrote:imo There isnt a bonsai master anywhere outside Japan, and unless one moves (unlikely) there probably never will be.

What about China? They have been doing bonsai since the neolithic era.
And I'm sure there are many other masters of bonsai outside of Japan.

Rob Kempinski recons the Chinese have been doing bonsai sinse the neolithic era, 6500-3500 bc???

Dont think so

landerloos
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  Rob Kempinski on Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:57 pm

landerloos wrote:
Rob Kempinski wrote:
marcus watts wrote:imo There isnt a bonsai master anywhere outside Japan, and unless one moves (unlikely) there probably never will be.

What about China? They have been doing bonsai since the neolithic era.
And I'm sure there are many other masters of bonsai outside of Japan.

Rob Kempinski recons the Chinese have been doing bonsai sinse the neolithic era, 6500-3500 bc???

Dont think so

Probably not but there is evidence of pot use in the Yangshao culture which goes way back to then. Who knows, they may have started it when they were fighting saber tooth tigers. Laughing
I've read that a penjing fresco in an Eastern Han tomb excavated at Wangdu in Heibei province over 1900 years shows penjing (i.e. bonsai ) was well established in Chinese culture. Bonsai was brought to Japan sometime in the Southern Song dynasty of China (1127–1279) so China had been doing it for nearly a millennia before Japan.

Rob Kempinski
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  Orion on Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:11 am

You can find a ton of information regarding the history of penjing and bonsai from Robert Baran at Phoenix Bonsai. He has compiled an amazing amount of primary and secondary sources as well as additional reference materials that will more than satisfy most bonsai enthusiasts.

Orion
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  tim stubbs on Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:42 am

The Lad wrote:quote="tony"]Hi Jim ...this is real simple...take a look at the teachers trees... Trees they had had for some time and not trees they have just styled. That's most of the qualifications you will need. If YOU like them... There is your answer.

That's fair enough to say Tony BUT and for me a BIG BUT these days if you have the £'s or $'s or what ever currency you use to me many guys purchase SPECIMEN TREES ( is that the right word to use for out of this world Trees) so unless you know the individual its difficult to tell it that person has had his trees a while. Then there's the Honesty factor can you take a person word all about his Fabulous Tree or Trees.and what they have achieved with the Bonsai Tree or where he has practice his Craft and Art of Bonsai and how long for


[/quote]

Why do you assume many of the classic trees cost mega bucks many of the best trees cost nothing only sweat , only the imports of ready made japanese trees cost £ and then they are created by the unsung "masters" , the grower he does all the hard work for none of the glory .

i would prefer a collected tree done by people like Pavel, Walter , Mauro etc than one brought in ready made from japan any day as i see no one as a master only a teacher and the japanese will teach the japanese way ONLY

tim stubbs
Member


Back to top Go down

Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  The Lad on Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:29 am

[quote="graham walker"]Jim,

You could say the same about Bonsai Judges. What makes a Bonsai Artist/ practitioner a Judge?

A Great Question about Bonsai Judge's along with finding out about Bonsai Master's

Maybe some of the guys who have been asked to Judge Bonsai Shows large or small can through some light on this debate Why they were asked to judge an event and what makes them in their opinion qualified to Judge
===================================================
Quote

They do not have to go on a course or take a qualifying test/ exam that I know of. Most Judges are asked to judge trees because of their experience. Does this make a good Judge?

Now that would be also a good thing as we are not all GIFTED artistically or have the vision
but I am sure many would considered going on a recognized Bonsai Judge's Course and that way they ALL WE BE IMPARTIAL
===================================================

Quote

Maybe it is time that the Bonsai Fraternity had to take a course and pass an exam, before they qualified to be a Judge.

Outside of the Far Eastern BONSAI Countries I would like to think that could happen one day

===========================================================

Quote

In my other hobby of Cacti and Succulents, to be a Judge we have to attend courses (at our own expense) and take a test consisting of 10 cactus classes and 10 succulent classes and have to pass the tests before we attain the qualification, which is internationally recognised

I do like the sound of that and I feel if you had to pay for the Bonsai Qualifications in all Categories of Bonsai Trees and Styles you would get a fair assessment and hopefully a rightful Decision BUT everyone has their own opinion of the Bonsai culture and it could take many months or longer but they are guide lines that have to be adhered too but these must be adapted to the 21st Century way of Bonsai

Thanks Graham

Take care and look after each other and your Bonsai Trees

Jim thelad[b]

The Lad
Member


Back to top Go down

Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  The Lad on Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:18 pm

marcus watts wrote:imo There isnt a bonsai master anywhere outside Japan, and unless one moves (unlikely) there probably never will be. The mature and highly skilled japanese individuals will, for the most part, have worked 10s of 1000's of long hours on bonsai, lived, ate and breathed bonsai, even inherited the family bonsai business & inherited the responsability of becoming gaurdian to trees with great history. An individual who is humble enough to continue their great works without plastering themselves all over utube, without standing on every stage demoing at every convention etc is the true master....

Marcus, I hear what you say and appreciate your input and agree with you BUT we cannot always keep looking back WE MUST MOVE FORWARD surely and carry on these old traditions BUT hopefully improve with modern and up to date Techniques to make Bonsai more available and NOT Frightening which many people ( including myself till 5 or so years ago)

======================================================
Quote

.This will never be achieved by the current crop of bonsai circuit stylists, where the most important thing is the appearance fee, once money takes over the importance of the tree becomes second. Even worse are the corner cutting stylists that are churning out trees with good artistry but very poor tecniques just to create a wow looking photo image to use as adverts for themselves - we see lots of that these days, and it is bad for the future quality of homegrown bonsai.

Have you experience this Marcus !!!!!I am sadden that here in UK they are so many SO-Called Bonsai Experts who are out to make a few Bucks on what little knowledge they have
==================================================

Quote

Tony touched on a very important bit, but i think the detail of what he said was missed in the posts following - he literally took the words out of my mouth that you must look at an individuals personal trees - he importantly said though...........trees they have owned for some time.........suddenly it went into talking about money, and that money can buy specimen trees so the individual would look good anyway. Not so.............because the key point wasnt the trees, but how long the keeper had owned them, keeping them healthy, thriving and improving shows the true skill.

I enjoyed Tony's comment and they made me think that even if you buy a Winning Specimen Bonsai Tree you do need the knowledge and know how to to look after it and maintain its condition so I am slightly moving towards the fact that someone can purchase a FANTSTIC Bonsai Tree and be the carer of such a specimen

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Quote

Any fool can buy a few specimen trees and let them decline through lack of knowledge and ability. I have seen more than a few dead or dying, very expensive trees in the premices of a japanese 'trained' freelance bonsai expert. I've seen even more trees tucked at the back with severe die back from huge styling sessions that should have taked 3 years rather than 3 hours.

I am sure seeing all that must have made you sick to see so many or even one Specimen tree or trees being neglected that way

=========================================

Maybe in the west we will one day spawn a master - but it will be a mature and understated individual of great skill - not someone who has been pounding the pavements trying to make a name for themselves - how on earth can you maintain and understand your own trees if you are not at home with them for many weeks or months ?????

When I first started many years ago (5years ) i was introduced to a few Club members and saw their trees in their garden's and my eyes popped out of my head as I had never seen so many Bonsai Trees in a persons garden and the First Question I asked was " WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GO AWAY ON HOLIDAY OR VACATION "
many said club members help each other when they go away but one did say " I DON'T GO ON HOLIDAY " which i thought at the time was silly or stupid BUT now I would agree as even though My trees and nothing to write home about for me and my family they are precious and I have even taken some trees away with me over a long weekend

========================================

Quote

The closest candidate for me atm would be Walter Pall, (not that i know or have ever met him). But i see some beautiful trees that improve with each picture you see.

I have read a lot about Mr Pall and saw many of his chats on youtube but for me i am undecided about where he would fit into the Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century and looking at his trees HE DOES DESERVE A MENTION

good topic, cheers Marcus

Thanks for writing Marcus take care look after yourself and all your bonsai Trees and hope you continue to ad to this discussion

Jim thelad

The Lad
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  my nellie on Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:29 pm

Very interesting to read your points of view!
But, excuse me.... Why don't you just use the "Quote" button so that you do not make the texts so perplex and everybody can follow and distinguish between the quoted text and the answer/posted text?

Just a practical matter for everybody's convenience.

Thank you.


Last edited by my nellie on Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

my nellie
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  fiona on Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:29 pm

... or we could just not "judge" bonsai exhibitions at all and be done with all the silly nonsense, posturing and the usual twaddle about "that tree shouldn't have won because it's a bought tree".

IMHO the minute we start putting points scoring systems on to bonsai shows is the very minute when we'll lose creativity. With apologies to Graham as I know it's his passion, but when I look at the cactus exhibits in flower shows, I see row upon row of everything looking the same because they're all having to conform to a "standard". And one can substitute any of the judged categories at a flower show in that - fuchsias, chrysanthemums, begonias etc. I'm sorry but the minute bonsai starts doing that, then I'm afraid I'll start going to vegetable shows of leeks, carrots, potatoes and onions because at least I'll know I can get a decent bowl of soup out of them. Very Happy

fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  The Lad on Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:35 pm

morten albek wrote:I agree Marcus.

Though I believe no masters (if the word is understood as it should be), are present today in the west. And why is it important to put a label on someone, making them something special? It is all about the trees isn´t it? Very Happy

Regards
Morten

For Me Morten I feel its important that if someone in the Bonsai World is deemed to be a Bonsai Master by some of The Bonsai Community in the West or the Far East. it would be great to know HOW HE WAS CHOSEN TO BE A MASTER or do we all wait till he passes away then give them that Title or Acknowledgement

Its not about labels and I agree its should all be about the TREE but then its nice to know who was the expert who achieved such high standards

Take care and thanks for your comments and any more that you would like to add

Look after yourself and all your bonsai trees

Jim thelad

The Lad
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  JimLewis on Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:08 pm

As soon as you get "Judges" (Note capitalization) in the works you get politics gumming up the works.

My wife, Jackie is an equestrian judge (ridden dressage and carriage dressage) and competed for years herself on horseback and now, in carriages). Equestrian judging is MUCH less subjective that bonsai judging would have to be, but there's still a LOT of "who you know" and "who you WANT to know better" and who you want to kiss up to messing up the results, according to her.

I've always thought that juried bonsai shows (except "people's choice types) were a very bad idea if we want to keep bonsai alive and well.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:49 pm

fiona wrote:... or we could just not "judge" bonsai exhibitions at all and be done with all the silly nonsense, posturing and the usual twaddle about "that tree shouldn't have won because it's a bought tree".

IMHO the minute we start putting points scoring systems on to bonsai shows is the very minute when we'll lose creativity. With apologies to Graham as I know it's his passion, but when I look at the cactus exhibits in flower shows, I see row upon row of everything looking the same because they're all having to conform to a "standard". And one can substitute any of the judged categories at a flower show in that - fuchsias, chrysanthemums, begonias etc. I'm sorry but the minute bonsai starts doing that, then I'm afraid I'll start going to vegetable shows of leeks, carrots, potatoes and onions because at least I'll know I can get a decent bowl of soup out of them. Very Happy

This is a great discussion. I was thinking about adding something but now all I can think about is SOUP. Thanks a lot Fiona Smile

Keep the posts coming. Maybe the term "Master" is needed to give one additional authority on the subject, and maybe without that term people put less value or weight on what he is talking about. After all most everyone automatically respects an ASE certified master mechanic versus uncle Joe who claims to be able to work on any car. Food for thought. See it just went back to food again. I gotta eat something.

Have a great week everyone!!!
Sam

Sam Ogranaja
Member


Back to top Go down

Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  The Lad on Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:12 pm

my nellie wrote:Very interesting to read your points of view!
But, excuse me.... Why don't you just use the "Quote" button so that you do not make the texts so perplex and everybody can follow and distinguish between the quoted text and the answer/posted text?

Just a practical matter for everybody's convenience.

Thank you.

I apologize my Nellief for my mistake not being used to using the "Quote" Button I am learning so hopefully if all goes well it won't happen again but then no-one is perfect but being from MARS so I have been told many times you must allow for some imperfection

Take care

Jim thelad[u]

The Lad
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  my nellie on Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:19 pm

I am sure you did not get me wrong, Jim! Smile
No need to apologize, I assure you!

Take a look at my signature... Smile

my nellie
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  The Lad on Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:13 pm

[quote="fiona"]... or we could just not "judge" bonsai exhibitions at all and be done with all the silly nonsense, posturing and the usual twaddle about "that tree shouldn't have won because it's a bought tree".
==================

Maybe so Fiona but no matter how hard we try there will ALWAYS or WILL be debates and sometimes Lots Of Twaddle about Bonsai Trees on what Tree should have Been Judged the Best in a Category or Show as we are ALL individuals and have our own opinions about which is the best tree no matter if it is bought and I feel knowing that the tree has been in the owners or carers possession for at least 5 years or more.is a credit to them and NOT one the was purchased a few weeks or months before a Show Display. As far of doing away with Judges that would never happen as we ALL LIKE PRAISE on all the hard work and commitment and LOVE that's done to keep our trees in Bonsai Exhibitions Show Condition

Take care and look after yourself and all your Bonsai Trees

Jim thelad


I[/b][b]

The Lad
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  The Lad on Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:24 pm

my nellie wrote:I am sure you did not get me wrong, Jim! Smile
No need to apologize, I assure you!

Take a look at my signature... Smile

No My Nellie I know what you meant and it's only polite to apologize for my mistake and thanks for letting me know as i am sure i would have carried on regardless thinking i was doing ok when replying and like your signature says and I definitely belong in that category

thanks again for being honest

take care and look after yourself and all your Bonsai Trees

Jim the lad

The Lad
Member


Back to top Go down

Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  The Lad on Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:46 pm

JimLewis wrote:As soon as you get "Judges" (Note capitalization) in the works you get politics gumming up the works.

Maybe so Jim but no matter there's still a need for Judges and even Master or someone who is Extremely Knowledgeable in the Art of Bonsai and its Culture whether politics get involved or NOT

My wife, Jackie is an equestrian judge (ridden dressage and carriage dressage) and competed for years herself on horseback and now, in carriages). Equestrian judging is MUCH less subjective that bonsai judging would have to be, but there's still a LOT of "who you know" and "who you WANT to know better" and who you want to kiss up to messing up the results, according to her.

There many things Both working and Hobby Wise that this happens happens

I've always thought that juried bonsai shows (except "people's choice types) were a very bad idea if we want to keep bonsai alive and well.

Sorry to say Jim I Disagree with you there as I feel Judges are needed to help the individual Progress with their Bonsai Tree if need be and the owners have the right NOT TO SHOW THEIR TREES if they think the Judging is unfair

take care and look after each other and all your bonsai trees

Jim thelad

The Lad
Member


Back to top Go down

Vision

Post  David Carvalho on Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:28 pm

Hello Lad,

To be fairly honest I havent read the full topic, just the original post. From what I've read, in Japan a Deshi is considered a master when the master himself cannot distinguish if the work on the tree was done by him or by the Deshi. Still I've discovered recently that there is a fairly bigger Bonsai hierarchy in Japan, for example Taiga Urushibata (the son of the famous Master Urushibata from Taisho-En) is considered worldwide has a Master except in Japan where he is still considered a "Future Master".

This big Japanese hierarchy, brings a huge topic to discussion, since I've lost the quantity of self self-proclaimed Masters here in the Occident/West, seems like everyone is a Master nowadays Wink

I trully believe that only people who have studied in Japan has Deshi's like Mario Komsta and Ryan Neil (and many others) can clarify this issue in a proper manner, since they are following the path to turn into Bonsai Masters (which I personally believe they allready are).

NOTE: I have read a couple of more reply's to this topic, I just wanted to leave here some information from what I've been reading in the Masakuni (the Japanese Family which were responsable for the first Bonsai tools) Books, Bonsai is around 1700 years old, it started in China but was then brought to Japan (by Monks from what I've read in a different book), still Japan were responsible for the main evolution of the Art and the search for perfection. When Bonsai reached Japan it was not what we actually call Bonsai, there were a few poor technics, there weren't any proper tools, it was mainly due Japanese that the evolution of the art occurred, they were the creators of the first tools and many technics that we use today.

Best regards,


Last edited by David Carvalho on Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

David Carvalho
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  The Lad on Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:40 pm

tim stubbs wrote:
The Lad wrote:quote="tony"]Hi Jim ...this is real simple...take a look at the teachers trees... Trees they had had for some time and not trees they have just styled. That's most of the qualifications you will need. If YOU like them... There is your answer.

That's fair enough to say Tony BUT and for me a BIG BUT these days if you have the £'s or $'s or what ever currency you use to me many guys purchase SPECIMEN TREES ( is that the right word to use for out of this world Trees) so unless you know the individual its difficult to tell it that person has had his trees a while. Then there's the Honesty factor can you take a person word all about his Fabulous Tree or Trees.and what they have achieved with the Bonsai Tree or where he has practice his Craft and Art of Bonsai and how long for



Why do you assume many of the classic trees cost mega bucks many of the best trees cost nothing only sweat , only the imports of ready made japanese trees cost £ and then they are created by the unsung "masters" , the grower he does all the hard work for none of the glory .

Not at all Tim as the older Classic Trees may have been passed down along the line and cost nothing at all. It's when you KNOW yourself that someone has just BOUGHT A CLASSIC TREE or Specimen of many years old then its shown a month or later in a Bonsai Display Show
=======================
Quote
i would prefer a collected tree done by people like Pavel, Walter , Mauro etc than one brought in ready made from japan any day as i see no one as a master only a teacher and the japanese will teach the japanese way ONLY
[/quote]

I have read about and heard Bonsai people chatting about these 3 Gentleman Would you consider any of the 3 in the Bonsai Master Class
Be interesting to hear your thoughts on that

Take care and look after yourself and all you bonsai trees

Jim thelad[b]

The Lad
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:41 pm

The Lad wrote:
morten albek wrote:I agree Marcus.

Though I believe no masters (if the word is understood as it should be), are present today in the west. And why is it important to put a label on someone, making them something special? It is all about the trees isn´t it? Very Happy

Regards
Morten

For Me Morten I feel its important that if someone in the Bonsai World is deemed to be a Bonsai Master by some of The Bonsai Community in the West or the Far East. it would be great to know HOW HE WAS CHOSEN TO BE A MASTER or do we all wait till he passes away then give them that Title or Acknowledgement

Its not about labels and I agree its should all be about the TREE but then its nice to know who was the expert who achieved such high standards

Take care and thanks for your comments and any more that you would like to add

Look after yourself and all your bonsai trees

Jim thelad

Dear Jim

First the master subject. Just to point it out taking my self as subject. Someone calls me a master - believe it or not?! Very Happy
But I am not when I judge me. Far from. And when the word is used or misused too often, it looses its value.
So why do they do that, and why do I feel it´s awkward. Because a master has to deserve it through a lifetime achievement, and no matter how kind it is mend when put forward it is a misunderstanding, even in a western approach. Using it only when appropriate it stands out as something special as I think it should do.

A master is someone who have influenced the art in a groundbreaking manner and/or have shown high quality in her/his work for many years.
This is the way it is done in the stiff Japanese hierarchy. But we do not need to follow it and can do our own western way. Still I think a far better label is to say someone very good and skilled are named a "specialist".
This will be far more precise and covering in the meaning of the word, saving the master-labels for true masters for a later time when someone reaches this level.

The judging subject.
It is always the organizers who asks for judges, and I believe they ask someone who they trust are capable to do a good job judging. Many experienced people are. It is the organizers who decide, and like one have to accept how they set up an exhibition, one also have to accept who they ask to teach and who they ask to judge. I have always pleaded that the guest demonstrator also picks the awards, because it is a matter of personal preferences, and therefore easier to accept when one knows it is the approach of a specialist that makes her/his choice. And the choice seems easier to accept when a guest teacher/demonstrator makes decides the awards. We will anyway newer agree all together.

Best regards
Morten

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  tim stubbs on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:40 pm






I have read about and heard Bonsai people chatting about these 3 Gentleman Would you consider any of the 3 in the Bonsai Master Class
Be interesting to hear your thoughts on that

Take care and look after yourself and all you bonsai trees

Jim thelad[b]

Yes but would they like to be known as "masters" ?

tim stubbs
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Modern Masters - Bonsai in the 21st Century

Post  Sponsored content Today at 2:19 pm


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum